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12/09/2008 01:35:55 PM · #126
Originally posted by glad2badad:

In the photo being discussed from 'Feast' I voted on the image based on the people seated at the table, the way it was illuminated, etc... So, in essence, I voted on a photo of a photo.

As ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Bear_Music has pointed out, this was also taken and processed by the same photographer on the same day, who is thus is completely responsible for any artistic or technical qualities (or lack thereof) in that (indeed, every) portion of the photo.
12/09/2008 01:35:56 PM · #127
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

According to SC statements in this thread, the primary reason for the DQ (and it was a hard-fought decision, apparently) is that the image "fooled" people into believing it was a single capture of an actual scene, not an "artwork" shot. Which means, to my way of thinking, that had Lydia done such a bad job of compositing the separate images that it was obviously artwork, she wouldn't have been disqualified. And she wouldn't have ribboned either, for that matter.

Yes, if it had been obvious, there would be no DQ... or if the entry had been less "about" the background... OR if she had actually photographed her family sitting there for real. Methinks you'd be singing a different tune if someone entered a shot consisting of a model skiff in front of a marsh on their monitor and won a ribbon for Marsh.
12/09/2008 01:37:59 PM · #128
Originally posted by chromeydome:

As all of the imagery was hers and original, done within the rules as understood and as previously applied to her earlier images, I think you are just questioning the content of the image itself. I think the voters get to decide that....

Yes, they do, but they should be aware of what they're deciding before rollover.
12/09/2008 01:40:18 PM · #129
Personally I don't think any of this should be allowed in basic editing and let it be allowed in advanced. Manipulating something to death in photoshop and then taking a picture of it in basic editing is going around the rules and doesn't stick to the spirit of basic editing. Basic editing should be photographer, his/her camera and their ability with it. Photoshop should not come in to play anywhere.

Just my opinion.
12/09/2008 01:41:02 PM · #130
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by chromeydome:

As all of the imagery was hers and original, done within the rules as understood and as previously applied to her earlier images, I think you are just questioning the content of the image itself. I think the voters get to decide that....

Yes, they do, but they should be aware of what they're deciding before rollover.


' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/944/120/742023.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/944/120/742023.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' I didnt know I was voting on a sculpture here, is this also going to get a DQ based on the fooled the voter rule?

Matt
12/09/2008 01:41:08 PM · #131
Originally posted by scalvert:

Methinks you'd be singing a different tune if someone entered a shot consisting of a model skiff in front of a marsh on their monitor and won a ribbon for Marsh.


I resent that Shannon. You think wrong. What have I ever done or said that caused you to make such a statement about me?

R.
12/09/2008 01:42:14 PM · #132
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Methinks you'd be singing a different tune if someone entered a shot consisting of a model skiff in front of a marsh on their monitor and won a ribbon for Marsh.

I resent that Shannon. You think wrong. What have I ever done or said that caused you to make such a statement about me?

You have valued fairness.
12/09/2008 01:42:42 PM · #133
Every rule has an edge, and some people will always be attracted to that edge. There is no ruleset without subjective calls.

Like it or not, DPC has a lot of voters who vote on "technicals." Such voters would vote Lydia's photo based on how well she managed to get the foreground glass in sharp focus with just the right amount of blur on the background. Those voters were fooled.

Personally, either photo would get about a 5 from me. But I'm weird like that. I think with the ruleset as it's currently worded, they made the right call. What disturbs me are the photo examples that they think would NOT get DQ'd (hypothetically). Most of them are dq-able in the current ruleset, imho.
12/09/2008 01:43:36 PM · #134
Originally posted by MattO:

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/944/120/742023.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/944/120/742023.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' I didnt know I was voting on a sculpture here, is this also going to get a DQ based on the fooled the voter rule?

Probably not. After all, that IS what the real, 3-dimensional scene looked like!
12/09/2008 01:43:38 PM · #135
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by chromeydome:

As all of the imagery was hers and original, done within the rules as understood and as previously applied to her earlier images, I think you are just questioning the content of the image itself. I think the voters get to decide that....

Yes, they do, but they should be aware of what they're deciding before rollover.

But we are, even if we suspect a rules violation, instructed to vote as if there were none....

There are LOTS of DQ'd images that I vote on without any clue during voting that there is a rules violation.

I agree that the current rule, as written, does not prevent the abuses you suggest could occur. The rule needs to be rewritten. There is nothing about this image, however, that suggests abuse of a rule at all.
12/09/2008 01:46:39 PM · #136
Originally posted by chromeydome:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by chromeydome:

As all of the imagery was hers and original, done within the rules as understood and as previously applied to her earlier images, I think you are just questioning the content of the image itself. I think the voters get to decide that....

Yes, they do, but they should be aware of what they're deciding before rollover.

But we are, even if we suspect a rules violation, instructed to vote as if there were none....

There are LOTS of DQ'd images that I vote on without any clue during voting that there is a rules violation.

I agree that the current rule, as written, does not prevent the abuses you suggest could occur. The rule needs to be rewritten. There is nothing about this image, however, that suggests abuse of a rule at all.


And, as we have said numerous times when this topic comes up,

PLEASE, feel free to submit what you think is a fair rule that covers what it needs to cover.
12/09/2008 01:47:03 PM · #137
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Methinks you'd be singing a different tune if someone entered a shot consisting of a model skiff in front of a marsh on their monitor and won a ribbon for Marsh.

I resent that Shannon. You think wrong. What have I ever done or said that caused you to make such a statement about me?

You have valued fairness.


So you're saying "You may think it's fair in Lydia's case, Bear, but if it was in your ballpark you'd vote the other way!"? I repeat, what makes you think I'm that selfish and unpricipled?

Shannon, you've INSULTED me. Why? I'm only expressing my opinions here, like a lot of other people.

R.
12/09/2008 01:47:11 PM · #138
Originally posted by chromeydome:

But we are, even if we suspect a rules violation, instructed to vote as if there were none....
There are LOTS of DQ'd images that I vote on without any clue during voting that there is a rules violation.

That's only because entries that violate the rules will be DQ'd. You're suggesting the voters be allowed to judge the legitimacy of artwork by voting as if everything is a real scene. That doesn't make sense.
12/09/2008 01:48:24 PM · #139
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by chromeydome:

As all of the imagery was hers and original, done within the rules as understood and as previously applied to her earlier images, I think you are just questioning the content of the image itself. I think the voters get to decide that....

Yes, they do, but they should be aware of what they're deciding before rollover.

Why? Why not have a discussion about a photo, instead of just voting? There are clearly voices on both sides of the current gray area in the rules, why not let more voices be heard?

If someone is upset at being "fooled" by a well-executed illusion they are free to leave a comment to that effect right there on the photo -- "If I'd have known how you made this I would have voted it a 1" or similar wording of choice.

Typically, a photo is DQ'd like this when it seems people are being "fooled" by the content, but I don't think we've ever taken a poll to see how many voters weren't fooled by the same entry -- what if they out-vote the "fooled" by 3:1 or so ... just wonderin' ...
12/09/2008 01:48:50 PM · #140
As if this isnt confusing enough what about this? This is one that got me wondering about the rule a few weeks back. This is really pretty in-your-face as a picture of a picture. Even if we do know what it is.
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/951/120/739299.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/951/120/739299.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

On the other stuff I think if it fools you or me then horah for the shooter. I dont care if it fools me. Fish jumping, manatees swimming etc. I do care tho about a blade of grass being put in front of a photo just to say you put something there to make the rules. And I do care about someone using something like money like this for a macro.

This face of Franklin on the $100 bill was in puzzle macro. I am just curious about what makes this ok. Is it because it is obvious what it is and isn't fooling you? If that is it then I agree about changing that "fool you" part in the rules. There is a fine line to me about fooling someone with something like Lydia did with her background photo and fooling someone with just adding a blade of grass to a photo. And there is a fine line about using something like this Franklin photo in not fooling you but still just a picture of a picture with no real technical or photography skill other then just getting close up.

(yeh! I finally figured out how to post a thumbnail in here! hahah)
12/09/2008 01:51:18 PM · #141
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

So you're saying "You may think it's fair in Lydia's case, Bear, but if it was in your ballpark you'd vote the other way!"? I repeat, what makes you think I'm that selfish and unpricipled?

No, I'm saying you've always been for fairness and an even playing field. Where possible, voters should understand what they're voting on so that they can judge fairly compared to, say, the elaborate setups of De Sousa or Graphicfunk. I think you're making an uncharacteristic exception to that principle here.
12/09/2008 01:57:23 PM · #142
Originally posted by limerick:

...what about this?
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/951/120/739299.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/951/120/739299.jpg', '/') + 1) . '


This one's easy. Here's the rule, broken into its two DQable offenses:

as long as the entry:

1. does not appear to consist entirely of a pre-existing photograph in order to circumvent date or editing rules
This image obviously is not attempting to circumvent date or editing rules. One could take that image at any time, and the editing is basic.

or

2. fool the voters into thinking you actually captured the original photograph
I highly doubt anyone thinks that the photographer actually photographed Franklin himself.
12/09/2008 01:57:33 PM · #143
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

So you're saying "You may think it's fair in Lydia's case, Bear, but if it was in your ballpark you'd vote the other way!"? I repeat, what makes you think I'm that selfish and unpricipled?

No, I'm saying you've always been for fairness and an even playing field. Where possible, voters should understand what they're voting on so that they can judge fairly compared to, say, the elaborate setups of De Sousa or Graphicfunk. I think you're making an uncharacteristic exception to that principle here.


Then why not just SAY so, instead of saying I'd think differently if it was a skiff and a marsh? "Cuz I can assure you, no matter how "unfair" you may htink this sort of image is, I'm equally convinced that the "fool them" criterion for DQ is ridiculous and unfair. My thinking wouldn't change if it was a skiff and a marsh. OK?

I'm not that fickle.

R.
12/09/2008 01:57:57 PM · #144
Originally posted by limerick:

As if this isnt confusing enough what about this? This is one that got me wondering about the rule a few weeks back. This is really pretty in-your-face as a picture of a picture. Even if we do know what it is.
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/951/120/739299.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/951/120/739299.jpg', '/') + 1) . '



This wasn't dq'd because it's obviously a picture of money. The rule is about fooling the voters with a picture of a picture. I agree that it doesn't take much skill to execute, but the voters figured clearly figured out what it was and punished it with their votes.
12/09/2008 01:59:06 PM · #145
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by chromeydome:

But we are, even if we suspect a rules violation, instructed to vote as if there were none....
There are LOTS of DQ'd images that I vote on without any clue during voting that there is a rules violation.

That's only because entries that violate the rules will be DQ'd. You're suggesting the voters be allowed to judge the legitimacy of artwork by voting as if everything is a real scene. That doesn't make sense.


Well, I am disappointed--I have been respectful in all of my comments here, and this sort of word twisting is a bit insulting.

What I AM suggesting is that the system here Relies Upon the FAIR enforcement of clear rules, and the instructions tell us to let the SC decide if a rule violation has occurred. If the rule as written is not clear enough, we rely upon the SC to clarify it. The justification for this DQ seems to be that, even though she didn't use someone else's photograph, even though she didn't used advanced editing techniques on the background image in a basic challenge, even though the SC had validated similar but technically inferior images in the past, someone in the future might abuse this technique.....

In my respectful posts earlier, I suggested that rule be clearly updated with Alan's newly applied interpretation of this rule. Prohibit this sort of thing entirely, if you wish. Don't do so retroactively, unfairly. My basic assumption is that all of us want the rules to be fairly and equitably enforced.

If the Rule is CLEAR, then we can trust that entries that violate the rules will be DQ'd. The point, here, is whether we can trust that images will not be unfairly DQ'd due to unclear rules.
12/09/2008 01:59:29 PM · #146
Originally posted by karmat:

Originally posted by chromeydome:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by chromeydome:

As all of the imagery was hers and original, done within the rules as understood and as previously applied to her earlier images, I think you are just questioning the content of the image itself. I think the voters get to decide that....

Yes, they do, but they should be aware of what they're deciding before rollover.

But we are, even if we suspect a rules violation, instructed to vote as if there were none....

There are LOTS of DQ'd images that I vote on without any clue during voting that there is a rules violation.

I agree that the current rule, as written, does not prevent the abuses you suggest could occur. The rule needs to be rewritten. There is nothing about this image, however, that suggests abuse of a rule at all.


And, as we have said numerous times when this topic comes up,

PLEASE, feel free to submit what you think is a fair rule that covers what it needs to cover.


Can I answer? The rules - they are written like a letter some one might write to Congress. Not easy to understand. Why can't they just be more written for anyone to understand BUT add in examples. Like have it say what is says now but then under where it says "You may not..." you can put in examples using thumbnails like we are in here to make it really hit home? You could do the same for "You may.." to. Im not saying you need to make it a picture book but just one example here or there to give good live examples of what you really mean by what is written.

12/09/2008 02:02:31 PM · #147
As much as I stay out of the way on these kinds of arguments, I'm with the SC on this one. According to the current rules, this isn't even a borderline case. Reading the comments made during the challenge, not a single commenter figured out that this is a picture of a picture. Many people commented on the qualities of the family feast portion of the photo, making it more than just a background part of the image.
12/09/2008 02:02:52 PM · #148
Originally posted by limerick:

Can I answer? The rules - they are written like a letter some one might write to Congress. Not easy to understand. Why can't they just be more written for anyone to understand BUT add in examples. Like have it say what is says now but then under where it says "You may not..." you can put in examples using thumbnails like we are in here to make it really hit home? You could do the same for "You may.." to. Im not saying you need to make it a picture book but just one example here or there to give good live examples of what you really mean by what is written.


In the past I've argued for a "book" of decisions on the site, where DQ'd images of various sorts are posted with detailed discussion by SC of why they were DQ'd. These would be precedents others could refer to when wondering just what a certain rule actually means.

They do this in Golf, they do it in Sailing.

The idea did not meet with any acceptance from the powers-that-be at the time.

R.
12/09/2008 02:03:19 PM · #149
"Fool me once, shame on shame on you. Fool me twice you won't get fooled again" -George W. Bush
12/09/2008 02:03:21 PM · #150
Originally posted by karmat:

Originally posted by chromeydome:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by chromeydome:

As all of the imagery was hers and original, done within the rules as understood and as previously applied to her earlier images, I think you are just questioning the content of the image itself. I think the voters get to decide that....

Yes, they do, but they should be aware of what they're deciding before rollover.

But we are, even if we suspect a rules violation, instructed to vote as if there were none....

There are LOTS of DQ'd images that I vote on without any clue during voting that there is a rules violation.

I agree that the current rule, as written, does not prevent the abuses you suggest could occur. The rule needs to be rewritten. There is nothing about this image, however, that suggests abuse of a rule at all.


And, as we have said numerous times when this topic comes up,

PLEASE, feel free to submit what you think is a fair rule that covers what it needs to cover.


Alan already stated the new interpretation of the existing rule. Why not add this wording to the existing rule and move forward?

Originally posted by alanfreed:

If the artwork/photo within the submission is realistic AND important enough that voters are likely judging the photographic qualities of the elements within that art as if they were real, then it's a problem.

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