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01/15/2009 07:08:53 PM · #51
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

#1 Completely discounts adult conversions. I know lots and lots and lots of people who came to faith in their adult years. This would indicate that the environment you were raised is not the be-all of faith.


As an adult you're still influenced by the environment and times you live in, the personal events that go on in your life, the people around you, etc. Adults just like children just want to be happy, to feel safe and to fit in. For many, turning to religion solves that so no I don't discount that adult conversions take place. Do you know many adult conversions that were based on just reason and weighing of all the facts and information on the subject and not triggered by some event/circumstances that nudged it?

Message edited by author 2009-01-15 19:12:30.
01/15/2009 07:15:06 PM · #52
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Christianity is unique among them and I find that compelling.


I find this statement interesting. Could you expound on what you mean by unique, or at least explain its uniqueness, as you see it?


Among the top 12 world religions Christianity alone does not count works toward Salvation. One does not attain it by "being good".


What are the top 12 religions?
01/15/2009 07:16:59 PM · #53
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

#1 Completely discounts adult conversions. I know lots and lots and lots of people who came to faith in their adult years. This would indicate that the environment you were raised is not the be-all of faith.


As an adult you're still influenced by the environment and times you live in, the personal events that go on in your life, the people around you, etc. Adults just like children just want to be happy, to feel safe and to fit in. For many, turning to religion solves that so no I don't discount that adult conversions take place. Do you know many adult conversions that were based on just reason and weighing of all the facts and information on the subject and not triggered by some event/circumstances that nudged it?


Could you give me an example of a decision that would be devoid of influence by experience? I should have seen that you asserted "you believe in what you do because of your environment" Since I am ALWAYS in my environment how could I prove otherwise?
01/15/2009 07:24:36 PM · #54
Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Christianity is unique among them and I find that compelling.


I find this statement interesting. Could you expound on what you mean by unique, or at least explain its uniqueness, as you see it?


Among the top 12 world religions Christianity alone does not count works toward Salvation. One does not attain it by "being good".


What are the top 12 religions?


Some of these may not qualify as "religions" to everybody depending on your own definition...

Religions by Adherents
01/15/2009 07:31:51 PM · #55
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:


Among the top 12 world religions Christianity alone does not count works toward Salvation. One does not attain it by "being good".


What are the top 12 religions?


Some of these may not qualify as "religions" to everybody depending on your own definition...

Religions by Adherents


Okay. Now I have two questions:
1. What is salvation as it is being used here? (many religions listed don't believe in salvation, hence the question)
2. How do Christians attain salvation as you define it?
01/15/2009 07:32:14 PM · #56
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

#1 Completely discounts adult conversions. I know lots and lots and lots of people who came to faith in their adult years. This would indicate that the environment you were raised is not the be-all of faith.


As an adult you're still influenced by the environment and times you live in, the personal events that go on in your life, the people around you, etc. Adults just like children just want to be happy, to feel safe and to fit in. For many, turning to religion solves that so no I don't discount that adult conversions take place. Do you know many adult conversions that were based on just reason and weighing of all the facts and information on the subject and not triggered by some event/circumstances that nudged it?


Could you give me an example of a decision that would be devoid of influence by experience?
Decisions based on the scientific method?
01/15/2009 07:45:08 PM · #57
Originally posted by yanko:

Could you give me an example of a decision that would be devoid of influence by experience? Decisions based on the scientific method?

You don't think a decision regarding the same question asked in 1815 and 1915 based on the scientific method wouldn't be different?

Message edited by author 2009-01-15 20:23:03.
01/15/2009 08:22:48 PM · #58
Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:


Among the top 12 world religions Christianity alone does not count works toward Salvation. One does not attain it by "being good".


What are the top 12 religions?


Some of these may not qualify as "religions" to everybody depending on your own definition...

Religions by Adherents


Okay. Now I have two questions:
1. What is salvation as it is being used here? (many religions listed don't believe in salvation, hence the question)
2. How do Christians attain salvation as you define it?


I suppose it is whatever the particular religion considers as "nirvana". I agree, not all religions have an afterlife, although most do. Eastern religions would look toward "enlightenment" or attaining the highest order in reincarnation.

Paul says this about Salvation and it sums up the Christian position..."All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Let's put it this way. No other religious text will contain a phrase even remotely close to that.

Message edited by author 2009-01-15 20:26:37.
01/15/2009 08:27:36 PM · #59
if God loves us then why do we have Hell?
if God created everything then who created the Devil?
if God is almighty then why havent he won the war against Satan?
01/15/2009 08:32:08 PM · #60
Originally posted by crayon:

if God loves us then why do we have Hell?
if God created everything then who created the Devil?
if God is almighty then why havent he won the war against Satan?


1) God allows those who do not want to be with him to do so.
2) The question is self-answering. God.
3) I don't really think of it as a literal war with armies and such even though that imagery is used. Satan represent those who want to do it their own way and not God's way. As long as there is Free Will, such an option is possible and is allowed.
01/15/2009 08:39:36 PM · #61
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by crayon:

if God loves us then why do we have Hell?
if God created everything then who created the Devil?
if God is almighty then why havent he won the war against Satan?


1) God allows those who do not want to be with him to do so.
2) The question is self-answering. God.
3) I don't really think of it as a literal war with armies and such even though that imagery is used. Satan represent those who want to do it their own way and not God's way. As long as there is Free Will, such an option is possible and is allowed.


from your answers to questions 1,2 and 3, if God created the Devil, gives us freewill and choices, and allows those who do not want to be with him to do so, then whyis it that religious nutcase always like to annoy us and ask us to convert, or to believe their Gods? and what's with this threatening of non-believers with Hell?
01/15/2009 08:55:33 PM · #62
Originally posted by DrAchoo:


Paul says this about Salvation and it sums up the Christian position..."All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Let's put it this way. No other religious text will contain a phrase even remotely close to that.


the phrasing is irrelevant. What I need to know, in simple straight-forward language, is how christians attain salvation.

From what you have posted, God gives everyone salvation by his grace. So, regardless of how you act, how you make your way in the world, if you have faith in Jesus, god will grant you salvation. Is that correct?
01/15/2009 08:58:38 PM · #63
Originally posted by dahkota:

if you have faith in Jesus, god will grant you salvation. Is that correct?


That is correct.
01/15/2009 08:59:20 PM · #64
1. How come all of the millions of dollars I asked God for over the years has gone to Bill Gates instead?
2. Isn't that a sin?
3. Can God sin?

Be advised that my wife is a witch and if your answer displeases me I will have her cast a hex on you.

I'm just kidding of course. My wife is not a witch, but it's spelled almost the same. :)

01/15/2009 09:00:53 PM · #65
Originally posted by crayon:

from your answers to questions 1,2 and 3, if God created the Devil, gives us freewill and choices, and allows those who do not want to be with him to do so, then whyis it that religious nutcase always like to annoy us and ask us to convert, or to believe their Gods? and what's with this threatening of non-believers with Hell?


Think of it as someone trying to get you to see "The Way". If they possess the truth, wouldn't you want this treatment? If they don't possess the truth, then you answered your own question with the word "nutcase".
01/15/2009 09:01:56 PM · #66
Originally posted by Mick:

1. How come all of the millions of dollars I asked God for over the years has gone to Bill Gates instead?


You sure you don't have your prayers set with Call-forwarding by accident? Usually it's user error...
01/15/2009 09:02:32 PM · #67
So, there is no correct action in christianity, other than faith in Jesus, and, according to christians, they will go to 'heaven.'

So, why bother with the golden rule or the ten commandments or sin in general? Why bother with the pronouncements of the bible against this or that, when, when it comes down to it, none of it matters?

If anyone can get into heaven, why is it considered special?
01/15/2009 09:03:33 PM · #68
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by crayon:

from your answers to questions 1,2 and 3, if God created the Devil, gives us freewill and choices, and allows those who do not want to be with him to do so, then whyis it that religious nutcase always like to annoy us and ask us to convert, or to believe their Gods? and what's with this threatening of non-believers with Hell?


Think of it as someone trying to get you to see "The Way". If they possess the truth, wouldn't you want this treatment? If they don't possess the truth, then you answered your own question with the word "nutcase".


how do you differentiate between a religious nutcase and the one who is not?
01/15/2009 09:31:28 PM · #69
Originally posted by dahkota:

So, there is no correct action in christianity, other than faith in Jesus, and, according to christians, they will go to 'heaven.'

So, why bother with the golden rule or the ten commandments or sin in general? Why bother with the pronouncements of the bible against this or that, when, when it comes down to it, none of it matters?

If anyone can get into heaven, why is it considered special?


With regard to Salvation, there is no other correct action. With regard to living on earth, there are plenty. We bother with the ten commandments and the like because a) we love God and b) they generally lead to a good life.

Heaven is special not because we are there, but because God is there. However, despite the seemingly easy requirements, there will be lots of people missing because it's actually quite hard to give up our Pride and admit we need help.
01/15/2009 09:31:45 PM · #70
Originally posted by crayon:

how do you differentiate between a religious nutcase and the one who is not?


Foaming at the mouth.
01/15/2009 09:40:30 PM · #71
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:


1. It has been argued that belief is the result of indoctination. You believe in what you do because of the environment in which you live or were raised in. Do you believe this is to be true?


#1 Completely discounts adult conversions. I know lots and lots and lots of people who came to faith in their adult years. This would indicate that the environment you were raised is not the be-all of faith.

Adult conversions can also be linked to a person's environment, so the factor of age alone is immaterial. Religious distribution by region is far more compelling in this regard. You may know lots of people who came to faith as adults, but how many of them came to embrace Islamic faith or Hindu faith? If we were in Iran or India you would have seen many such non-Christian conversions around you. As an American you will probably see more conversions towards Christianity.

Aren't the odds really in favor of humans generally imitating the beliefs of the community around them? You can say this is God's super mysterious paradigm and not a problem for finite mortals to deal with or explain, but a skeptic like me just hears that as a cop out to a seriously problematic issue for religions.
01/15/2009 09:48:13 PM · #72
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

it's actually quite hard to give up our Pride and admit we need help.

The longer I walk this earth, and the more I learn, the easier it is to understand the depth of my ignorance.

If that is a conclusion reached by any reasonable, sentient being, how can you NOT give up Pride and admit you need help?

However.......that's not what makes me believe in God. Or why I believe that I'm his. Or why I feel as though I have been given direction and purpose in my life.

It feels strange even saying this here, but I believe because I really, truly, and honestly believe God spoke to me.

But not in any such way as to make me feel anything other than the exact tiniest cog in the big wheel that I am, and EXACTLY that. But in that same manner, that I am his.

So I KNOW that I'm not big and special......but I am.

Weird enough for you?
01/15/2009 09:48:41 PM · #73
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by crayon:

how do you differentiate between a religious nutcase and the one who is not?


Foaming at the mouth.


i dont think you are being serious with your answer here.
01/15/2009 09:57:51 PM · #74
Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by crayon:

how do you differentiate between a religious nutcase and the one who is not?


Foaming at the mouth.


i dont think you are being serious with your answer here.


No. I'm serious. If you see foaming at the mouth you need to back away quickly.

I'm not sure a question is serious that involves the word "nutcase"...
01/15/2009 09:58:05 PM · #75
Originally posted by crayon:

how do you differentiate between a religious nutcase and the one who is not?


Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Foaming at the mouth.


Originally posted by crayon:

i dont think you are being serious with your answer here.

It's a really difficult question, one that provokes an answer like that......the use of the word nutcase isn't exactly easily defined.

Do you really want to stick with that term, or is religious extremist better, once again realizing that to certain Muslims, we are as bad as it gets thereby making us extreme.

What you, I, or Jason consider religious nutcases could very well be drastically different.
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