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DPChallenge Forums >> Photography Discussion >> What do you think of this "no photography" issue?
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02/08/2009 02:43:23 PM · #1
I was at an art festival yesterday, and I saw a sign on one artist's tent that said photography was prohibited. The festival's venue was outdoors, up and down the streets of a small town, and I started thinking that the artist would really have no grounds to prevent photos being taken from the area. He/she/they have concerns with their artwork being pirated.

While I understand (some of) the problem of piracy, do you think this artist(s) would have any right to ask/tell you to delete photos taken by you from outside their tent? (I don't.)

The sign that was posted can be seen here, as well as the rationale behind the sign and what might happen if someone were to shoot photos anyway.
Oh, and the text of the sign is at the bottom of the linked page. And no, I didn't take any photos myself. Perhaps if I had asked, I would have gotten permission.

Message edited by author 2009-02-08 14:45:12.
02/08/2009 02:47:15 PM · #2
Many of the craft shows we go to have these on the booths to prevent people from taking photos of the craft and then stealing the idea/making it themselves. I would think in a public location, they couldn't do anything about it except get in a snit. But in a private setting, I guess they could appeal to the site owner.
02/08/2009 02:51:53 PM · #3
In a public setting, those signs have no legal basis whatsoever. It would be laughable for anyone to even try to enforce it.
02/08/2009 02:52:53 PM · #4
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:

Many of the craft shows we go to have these on the booths to prevent people from taking photos of the craft and then stealing the idea/making it themselves. I would think in a public location, they couldn't do anything about it except get in a snit. But in a private setting, I guess they could appeal to the site owner.


I don't doubt they don't want their stuff copied and sold, but the site I linked to seems to say that the author would be ready to demand a photog delete pics from the camera, or even to grab the camera strap.

It seems to me, if you want to be that private, you shouldn't display your stuff in a public setting.
02/08/2009 02:53:39 PM · #5
Originally posted by K10DGuy:

In a public setting, those signs have no legal basis whatsoever. It would be laughable for anyone to even try to enforce it.

That's what I thought, too.
02/08/2009 03:03:55 PM · #6
Well, according to *them* the public space has nearly always been rented (in the case of shows that charge an entrance fee, which is the big ones) and the artists themselves rent their booths, so a right to protection does exist.

Furthermore, if you read their discussion, they talk about the need to distinguish between innocuous and suspicious photography. Put simply, nobody's gonna complain if you are shooting pictures in the show, of the show as a whole; but someone is likely to complain if you step right up and start doing full-frame images of individual works of art. I'd certainly complain if *I* was the artist and that happened...

R.
02/08/2009 03:08:56 PM · #7
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Well, according to *them* the public space has nearly always been rented (in the case of shows that charge an entrance fee, which is the big ones) and the artists themselves rent their booths, so a right to protection does exist.

Furthermore, if you read their discussion, they talk about the need to distinguish between innocuous and suspicious photography. Put simply, nobody's gonna complain if you are shooting pictures in the show, of the show as a whole; but someone is likely to complain if you step right up and start doing full-frame images of individual works of art. I'd certainly complain if *I* was the artist and that happened...

R.


Well still if you're on the public path using a zoom lens, then they really have no right short of putting up a curtain or wall.

02/08/2009 03:30:32 PM · #8
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Well, according to *them* the public space has nearly always been rented (in the case of shows that charge an entrance fee, which is the big ones) and the artists themselves rent their booths, so a right to protection does exist.

Furthermore, if you read their discussion, they talk about the need to distinguish between innocuous and suspicious photography. Put simply, nobody's gonna complain if you are shooting pictures in the show, of the show as a whole; but someone is likely to complain if you step right up and start doing full-frame images of individual works of art. I'd certainly complain if *I* was the artist and that happened...

R.

Sure, the artist rented space, but if they open their tent for public viewing, and I shoot from public property, then I don't think they have any legal standing. And, of course, I wouldn't want a big print of mine shot at a show, (were I to ever have a show).
Also, The page that had the sign posits the question of, "Would you grasp the camera strap?" which would not go over well with me...

From the page, //www.artandjunk.com/artsvcs-page-04.htm:
Practice mentally. Confrontation is stressful. Train for it. Remember, it isn’t like you’re going to lose a sale. Those photographing every tent and taking no business cards for later follow-up contact just aren’t there to buy your art. What will you say? Will you even distract yourself with whatever verbal objections a pirate-photographer throws at you to save himself –or will you first see that the images of your items are deleted and then discuss legal fine points afterward –if you feel like it? Would you grasp the camera strap? Would you say that you’ll need to see the images of your artwork deleted; you can read this sign if you like, but the pictures have to go? Will you get into a verbal power struggle? After all, a real pirate-photographer will NEVER say “oh yes quite right, I actually AM getting paid a hundred bucks to get pictures I can e-mail to a factory.” Not going to happen. They’ll say it is a personal hobby, they’ll cite freedom of expression, they’ll fuss, they won’t admit a thing. Actual innocent civilians will usually comply straight away.
02/08/2009 03:34:56 PM · #9
wow, talk about setting the artists up for all kinds of messed up incidents. If the fair/show/whatever was that serious, they'd hire a security company and make sure everything is as legally set up as possible for prevention.

Putting it on the shoulders of the people showing their work is just asking for trouble.
02/08/2009 03:44:08 PM · #10
every artist in any field has copyright over their work. Get over it and recognise this. How many posts have I seen on this site about "Stolen photos.? the same applies to other artists in other fields respect their copyright and artistic interpretations
02/08/2009 03:48:11 PM · #11
Originally posted by kiwinick:

every artist in any field has copyright over their work. Get over it and recognise this. How many posts have I seen on this site about "Stolen photos.? the same applies to other artists in other fields respect their copyright and artistic interpretations


I don't think that's being denied here. An artist has copyright, but they don't have a right, themselves, to confiscate equipment or photographs from someone else. That's for law enforcement. If someone eventually started using their work in a pirated manner, then they have the right to invoke their copyright and take it from there.

A booth person cannot, legally, take my camera from me or make me delete my photography. period. At least not in the U.S. or Canada. If they had it legally set up, they could certainly get a security officer to intervene on their behalf though.
02/08/2009 03:52:25 PM · #12
realisticly if someone (arrrgh) watented to copy your artwork for mass production it would be easier to buy the dmn thing & get a good copy than worry about a cell phone copy ..

02/08/2009 04:32:42 PM · #13
Read the text in the link and all I can say is, "Paranoia strikes deep!"

I understand what they're getting at. But I think they're taking it way too far. They make it sound like every art fair has someone who is such an amazing artist that they're a target - I refute this. If you go to these shows here in the Northeast, you end up seeing the same stuff at each of them! Are the vendors going to go after each other with the same zeal as the foreigners?

And the whole section on what to do if they see photos being taken is only going to cause problems - some over zealous vendor is going to go to the extreme and throw a fit about a photographer taking an innocent photo, and then there will be another news piece on how photographers are bad people/perverts/terrorists/etc.

And may the gods have mercy on the person who grabs MY camera strap because they don't like what they think I'm doing... At the very least, they've just opened themselves up to assault charges.
02/08/2009 04:58:54 PM · #14
How would you feel if you had your photos on display and someone took pictures of them??
02/08/2009 05:04:35 PM · #15
Legal Rights of Photographers (PDF) is worth a read, and addresses some of these issues.
02/08/2009 05:08:34 PM · #16
Ya know what really pissed me off most. It is the Complete Lack of respect people in todays society have.

I mean seriously, you come here to bitch and moan and 'find ways' to thawrt the evil of an artist asking for no pictures. If you think the artist doesn't have a right you are a fool, in my opinion.

Have a little respect. Seriously, why is it you have to find ways to screw over everyone? Ya know, I am all for photographer rights, and have been confronted many times because of ignorant people. But ya know, if someone simple came up to me, had the balls to respect me like a person and ask me to stop. That would have been it. No confrontation, no nuffin. If an Artist asked you not to take photographs, than don't.

However have the same token not to complain about it, because you have no rights to complain. Really, what picture are you missing out on? None.

Such a lack of respect... guess thats another of the many reasons I am leaving this website and most likely photography. People suck.
02/08/2009 05:24:11 PM · #17
Admittedly, I haven't been to many art fairs. Mostly because the stuff on display at the ones I've been to, just isn't that interesting.

Anyway, I can tell you that if I were taking a photograph and someone asked me nicely to stop, I probably would. If they demanded that I delete images, I'd refuse. If they grabbed my camera strap, well, at that point, I'd need to assess their intent, decide if they were a real threat and whether need to be put on the ground for my own safety. It would really depend on their attitude. If they're nice, I'll be nice, if they're going to be an A-hole, I'm going to be an even bigger A-hole.
02/08/2009 06:12:22 PM · #18
Originally posted by digographerxo:

How would you feel if you had your photos on display and someone took pictures of them??


Here we go. If a person is that paranoid about copyright violations, then they shouldn't even be in public with their stuff. As far as touching me or my personal stuff I agree with Spazmo.
02/08/2009 06:13:06 PM · #19
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Admittedly, I haven't been to many art fairs. Mostly because the stuff on display at the ones I've been to, just isn't that interesting.

Anyway, I can tell you that if I were taking a photograph and someone asked me nicely to stop, I probably would. If they demanded that I delete images, I'd refuse. If they grabbed my camera strap, well, at that point, I'd need to assess their intent, decide if they were a real threat and whether need to be put on the ground for my own safety. It would really depend on their attitude. If they're nice, I'll be nice, if they're going to be an A-hole, I'm going to be an even bigger A-hole.


That pretty much summarizes my own personal feelings on the matter.
02/08/2009 06:35:17 PM · #20
Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Admittedly, I haven't been to many art fairs. Mostly because the stuff on display at the ones I've been to, just isn't that interesting.

Anyway, I can tell you that if I were taking a photograph and someone asked me nicely to stop, I probably would. If they demanded that I delete images, I'd refuse. If they grabbed my camera strap, well, at that point, I'd need to assess their intent, decide if they were a real threat and whether need to be put on the ground for my own safety. It would really depend on their attitude. If they're nice, I'll be nice, if they're going to be an A-hole, I'm going to be an even bigger A-hole.


That pretty much summarizes my own personal feelings on the matter.


Thirded.
02/08/2009 06:37:37 PM · #21
Case in point (read my comment beneath the image):
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/5000-9999/7778/120/71457.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/5000-9999/7778/120/71457.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

02/08/2009 07:11:35 PM · #22
To me, this thread borders on the surreal (or is it schizophrenic?):

Here we have a community that leaps up and down with howls of righteous outrage every time some deluded fool out there on the net is seen to have appropriated one of our images for their own use. I mean, collectively we are REALLY hard on these people, y'all know that.

Now here's a thread where we are responding with outrage to the idea that some artists exhibiting their works are aware of a real, actual, thriving piracy ring that takes digital images of their most interesting pictures and sends them to china to be reproduced by factory painters who get paid pennies a day, claiming that *our* right to copy their work cannot be abridged as long as we are standing in a public place?

Lawd have mercy, this is beyond absurd, in my worldview at least.

R.
02/08/2009 07:37:12 PM · #23
Originally posted by kiwinick:

every artist in any field has copyright over their work. Get over it and recognise this. How many posts have I seen on this site about "Stolen photos.? the same applies to other artists in other fields respect their copyright and artistic interpretations


Originally posted by K10DGuy:

I don't think that's being denied here. An artist has copyright, but they don't have a right, themselves, to confiscate equipment or photographs from someone else. That's for law enforcement. If someone eventually started using their work in a pirated manner, then they have the right to invoke their copyright and take it from there.

A booth person cannot, legally, take my camera from me or make me delete my photography. period. At least not in the U.S. or Canada. If they had it legally set up, they could certainly get a security officer to intervene on their behalf though.

I'm quite sure that a security person could not make you delete images, either.

You're talking rights and restrictions that are not criminal, but civil offenses.....that means they have to take you to court.

Nobody has the right to touch you, or your camera no matter what they think or feel you've done wrong.
02/08/2009 07:39:29 PM · #24
Originally posted by digographerxo:

How would you feel if you had your photos on display and someone took pictures of them??

Goes with the territory if you're going to exhibit in a public place.

If you're that worried about it, don't exhibit in street fairs, and/or pay the tariff for a gallery to host your work. Most galleries will not let you photograph others' work and they are absolutely private property.
02/08/2009 07:43:17 PM · #25
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

To me, this thread borders on the surreal (or is it schizophrenic?):

Here we have a community that leaps up and down with howls of righteous outrage every time some deluded fool out there on the net is seen to have appropriated one of our images for their own use. I mean, collectively we are REALLY hard on these people, y'all know that.

Now here's a thread where we are responding with outrage to the idea that some artists exhibiting their works are aware of a real, actual, thriving piracy ring that takes digital images of their most interesting pictures and sends them to china to be reproduced by factory painters who get paid pennies a day, claiming that *our* right to copy their work cannot be abridged as long as we are standing in a public place?

Lawd have mercy, this is beyond absurd, in my worldview at least.

R.


Not really.

The offense doesn't occur until the illegal work is published. If someone downloads an image from DPC or elsewhere there's nothing wrong about that. The same if someone take a photograph of an artwork on display. I don't think anyone is saying that the people who are copying these works overseas and then selling them are within their rights, but the actions of those few doesn't justify stepping on the rights of all.
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