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03/24/2010 11:38:28 PM · #251
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by LoudDog:

What if I'm willing to take the risk to let medical debt pile up if I get sick in return for the thousands I save if I don't get sick? It's a gamble some take.

Maybe you're willing to risk not wearing a seatbelt, crossing a railroad when the gates are down, trying cocaine, taking counterfeit prescription drugs, or wiping out your 401k account early. Where practical, governments have some duty to protect citizens from their own lousy choices, too (especially when the potential consequences pose an even greater burden to others). Some people are willing to gamble their lives with smoking. As with smoking, you'll still have the option, but pay a similar tax designed to discourage the poor decision. The annual tax (starting in 2014 at $95) will be less than even a single month of insurance premiums, so spare us the whining.


I think it's sad. We are incapable of taking care of ourselves, we are too stupid to be trusted to make our own decisions. What a great country. Thank god (or what/who ever you want) we have the dems to protect us.
03/25/2010 03:12:42 AM · #252
Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by LoudDog:

What if I'm willing to take the risk to let medical debt pile up if I get sick in return for the thousands I save if I don't get sick? It's a gamble some take.

Maybe you're willing to risk not wearing a seatbelt, crossing a railroad when the gates are down, trying cocaine, taking counterfeit prescription drugs, or wiping out your 401k account early. Where practical, governments have some duty to protect citizens from their own lousy choices, too (especially when the potential consequences pose an even greater burden to others). Some people are willing to gamble their lives with smoking. As with smoking, you'll still have the option, but pay a similar tax designed to discourage the poor decision. The annual tax (starting in 2014 at $95) will be less than even a single month of insurance premiums, so spare us the whining.


I think it's sad. We are incapable of taking care of ourselves, we are too stupid to be trusted to make our own decisions. What a great country. Thank god (or what/who ever you want) we have the dems to protect us.


Well clearly not everyone is as perfect as you. Yes people do make mistakes and *gasp* sometimes start out life in extreme hardship with no silver spoon in their mouths. Hard to imagine I know.

Message edited by author 2010-03-25 03:13:28.
03/25/2010 03:13:41 AM · #253
Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Insurance is only unnecessary if you can afford to pay for any situation that comes up without it. Most people don't have that luxury.


What if I'm willing to take the risk to let medical debt pile up if I get sick in return for the thousands I save if I don't get sick? It's a gamble some take.

Just because you say it's necessary doesn't make it so.


That's what insurance is. A hedge against the risk.

Just like house and life insurance.

Or maybe you think bankruptcy is just a tool for when you get so deep in debt (for whatever reason) you can just bail and start over. Ya, there's a good one. Let your creditors take on the risk rather than yourself..
03/25/2010 07:59:09 AM · #254
This health-care bill has nothing to do with insuring more people and everything to do with redistribution of wealth. Tell me why does this bill include illegal aliens as beneficiaries?? I'll tell you why... because they know this is the first step toward granting them amnesty so that they can become a huge voting block to keep the socialists in power. It is most definitely not for humanitarian reasons. This is just the start.. does any body get that. If left unchecked we will be reliant upon the government for EVERYTHING. You won't be able to pay your energy bill without government subsidies if they are successful in getting Cap and trade passed. Then once we are all completely reliant upon the government they will make us dance like puppets to get the things we need to survive. They will have control of us. There is nothing humanitarian about this bill. It's just the beginning of the march toward a United States that punishes hard work and wealth. That is not the way this country got to be the worlds superpower. Sadly we are now in decline.
03/25/2010 08:10:33 AM · #255
It does not include illegal aliens. You really should read up on this stuff... //www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/22/us-healthcare-bill-illegal-immigrants

The fight is over, The myths remain

Message edited by author 2010-03-25 08:14:26.
03/25/2010 08:51:14 AM · #256
Originally posted by Kelli:

The fight is over, The myths remain

A fascinating look at human psychology.
03/25/2010 09:07:22 AM · #257
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Insurance is only unnecessary if you can afford to pay for any situation that comes up without it. Most people don't have that luxury.


What if I'm willing to take the risk to let medical debt pile up if I get sick in return for the thousands I save if I don't get sick? It's a gamble some take.

Just because you say it's necessary doesn't make it so.


That's what insurance is. A hedge against the risk.

Just like house and life insurance.

Or maybe you think bankruptcy is just a tool for when you get so deep in debt (for whatever reason) you can just bail and start over. Ya, there's a good one. Let your creditors take on the risk rather than yourself..


What? I know what insurance is, but thanks for the lesson anyway.

Since gambling is too risky and Americans are too stupid to be trusted, maybe the govt should shut down all the indian casinos, vegas, the stock market... People lose their ass there every day.
03/25/2010 09:15:23 AM · #258
Originally posted by citymars:

Originally posted by Kelli:

The fight is over, The myths remain

A fascinating look at human psychology.

This effect is very prominent in discussions over global warming, evolution, elections, immigration, homosexuality, etc. Not surprisingly, many of the same people who argue with myths and disinformation on one controversial issue will argue on all of them with no better grasp of reality. It's as painful to watch as Ahmadinejad dismissing the holocaust.
03/25/2010 09:16:59 AM · #259
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by LoudDog:

What if I'm willing to take the risk to let medical debt pile up if I get sick in return for the thousands I save if I don't get sick? It's a gamble some take.

Maybe you're willing to risk not wearing a seatbelt, crossing a railroad when the gates are down, trying cocaine, taking counterfeit prescription drugs, or wiping out your 401k account early. Where practical, governments have some duty to protect citizens from their own lousy choices, too (especially when the potential consequences pose an even greater burden to others). Some people are willing to gamble their lives with smoking. As with smoking, you'll still have the option, but pay a similar tax designed to discourage the poor decision. The annual tax (starting in 2014 at $95) will be less than even a single month of insurance premiums, so spare us the whining.


I think it's sad. We are incapable of taking care of ourselves, we are too stupid to be trusted to make our own decisions. What a great country. Thank god (or what/who ever you want) we have the dems to protect us.


Well clearly not everyone is as perfect as you. Yes people do make mistakes and *gasp* sometimes start out life in extreme hardship with no silver spoon in their mouths. Hard to imagine I know.


Thanks for recognizing my perfection, but I assure you there was never a silver spoon anywhere near me.

My problem is, if the govt is always there to bail everyone out, what is the incentive to not do stupid stuff? If everytime you screw up the govt helps you up and wipes your ass, what do you learn form your mistakes. Who cares if i get fired for skipping work, the govt will take care of me, who cares if I can't afford this house in three years when the interest rate climbs, the govt will take care of me... Do what you want, take big risks, it'll all be okay, obama has your back.
03/25/2010 09:25:15 AM · #260
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by citymars:

Originally posted by Kelli:

The fight is over, The myths remain

A fascinating look at human psychology.

This effect is very prominent in discussions over global warming, evolution, elections, immigration, homosexuality, etc. Not surprisingly, many of the same people who argue with myths and disinformation on one controversial issue will argue on all of them with no better grasp of reality. It's as painful to watch as Ahmadinejad dismissing the holocaust.


Of the things that people are unhappy about in this healthcare bill, which are myths and disinformation?

Mandating that people buy coverage?
Big govt handouts?
Taxes?
Lies about reducing the deficit?
Govt dictating minimum coverage?
Govt control?
Backroom deals?
Govt access to medical records?
Bribes?
No effort to reduce costs?
No freedom to buy percription drugs over the border?
No freedom to shop for insurance out of state?
Bigger govt?
Thousands of new govt employees to enforce rules?
over 100 new govt agencies created...
03/25/2010 09:37:53 AM · #261
Originally posted by LoudDog:

if the govt is always there to bail everyone out, what is the incentive to not do stupid stuff?

That's how parents do itó they tell you what you shouldn't do and try to encourage the right thing, but if you screw up they don't just leave you to die. The government does NOT bail everyone out (that'd be a good example of the aforementioned myths). Unemployment benefits are temporary, only the large industries whose demise would demolish the country get bailouts (a policy that Bush implemented), and if you can't afford your house, then you're probably going to lose it.

To hear you talk, if someone buys a modest house on a mortgage that represents only a small fraction of their salary and then loses their job, then they were stupid for taking a "big risk" and should be left to suffer. People stricken with a serious illness should be forced to work through it rather than get a hand. People should have their faces smashed through a windshield as an "incentive" to wear seatbelts rather than be required by law. I can't imagine anything worse than living in such a cold, inhumane world.
03/25/2010 09:44:16 AM · #262
Oh, I don't know. Since moving in with my Mom and listening to the television (I've been away from television for years) I think the government is too broken on both sides to ever do much of anything, and if we devolve into a third world country (that's what I hear on the TV, you know!) it's our own damn fault.

People should be allowed to be stupid, to the point that it doesn't infringe on others. Don't wear a seatbelt, but not in my car. Therefore I get to tell you to get out, yes? But if you don't wear a seatbelt and survive the impact in your car, do I have to pay for your care and feeding now that you're a vegetable? Actually, what we should do, is use those people to harvest organs.... now there's a health plan!

I have had "socialized" health care my entire career - and now have a "socialized" pension (albeit not a cushy one like those in big business get). And yes, the government did indeed tell me what I could and could not do in many instances. It was not a career for everyone, to be sure. But my job allowed all of you to bitch all you want. There's that. :-)

I think the compromise is too compromised. But what do you expect with such a rabid two-party system?
03/25/2010 09:45:10 AM · #263
where are you scalvert? You like this arangement? Seems there is still more than one class of citizens.

btw, I didn't indicate one way or the other the cause of the rise, or fall of a stock. Investors are a fickle bunch and change directons for no reason sometimes.

Originally posted by David Ey:

Well, it 'may' answer some of the questions but it don't answer this. I heard those lying slob's tell us we would have the same coverage as they.

//www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=36174
03/25/2010 10:07:37 AM · #264
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by LoudDog:

if the govt is always there to bail everyone out, what is the incentive to not do stupid stuff?

That's how parents do itó they tell you what you shouldn't do and try to encourage the right thing, but if you screw up they don't just leave you to die. The government does NOT bail everyone out (that'd be a good example of the aforementioned myths). Unemployment benefits are temporary, only the large industries whose demise would demolish the country get bailouts (a policy that Bush implemented), and if you can't afford your house, then you're probably going to lose it.

To hear you talk, if someone buys a modest house on a mortgage that represents only a small fraction of their salary and then loses their job, then they were stupid for taking a "big risk" and should be left to suffer. People stricken with a serious illness should be forced to work through it rather than get a hand. People should have their faces smashed through a windshield as an "incentive" to wear seatbelts rather than be required by law. I can't imagine anything worse than living in such a cold, inhumane world.


Gee, good job twisting what i said. notice the word "if" at the beginning of what you quoted! And who said anything about people buying modest houses they can afford then losing their jobs?

My wife was in real estate. I seen first hand time and time again, people using interest only ARMs and stated income loans, even negative am mortgages to get into houses they could not afford. Then the Obama bail out re-negotiated their loan to let them stay in the house. I have a few friends that did that too. My favorite is a buddy in AZ, a beer delivery truck driver that bought a $730,000 dream house. FYI, your tax dollars are paying his mortgage today.
03/25/2010 10:09:34 AM · #265
Originally posted by dponlyme:

This health-care bill has nothing to do with insuring more people and everything to do with redistribution of wealth. Tell me why does this bill include illegal aliens as beneficiaries?? I'll tell you why... because they know this is the first step toward granting them amnesty so that they can become a huge voting block to keep the socialists in power. It is most definitely not for humanitarian reasons. This is just the start.. does any body get that. If left unchecked we will be reliant upon the government for EVERYTHING. You won't be able to pay your energy bill without government subsidies if they are successful in getting Cap and trade passed. Then once we are all completely reliant upon the government they will make us dance like puppets to get the things we need to survive. They will have control of us. There is nothing humanitarian about this bill. It's just the beginning of the march toward a United States that punishes hard work and wealth. That is not the way this country got to be the worlds superpower. Sadly we are now in decline.


Originally posted by LoudDog:

My problem is, if the govt is always there to bail everyone out, what is the incentive to not do stupid stuff? If everytime you screw up the govt helps you up and wipes your ass, what do you learn form your mistakes. Who cares if i get fired for skipping work, the govt will take care of me, who cares if I can't afford this house in three years when the interest rate climbs, the govt will take care of me... Do what you want, take big risks, it'll all be okay, obama has your back.


The problem with these kinds of arguments is that life doesn't work out the way you fear it will in reality. How many democracies have socialized health care, and how many of those have the kinds of problems you all are so sure will result from socialized health care? Zero? How many of the folks who post here in the forums who have lived under both systems have said they prefer our model to the socialized health care model? Zero! So if you want to engage in an intellectual exercise about what might happen if we inch closer to universal health care, that's fine. But let's not pretend these arguments are anything more than straw-man arguments intended to frighten people or make them feel ashamed. The only reason so many Americans fall for these kinds of falsehoods is because so many of us have never stepped foot beyond our own borders.
03/25/2010 10:16:10 AM · #266
Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by LoudDog:

if the govt is always there to bail everyone out, what is the incentive to not do stupid stuff?

That's how parents do itó they tell you what you shouldn't do and try to encourage the right thing, but if you screw up they don't just leave you to die. The government does NOT bail everyone out (that'd be a good example of the aforementioned myths). Unemployment benefits are temporary, only the large industries whose demise would demolish the country get bailouts (a policy that Bush implemented), and if you can't afford your house, then you're probably going to lose it.

To hear you talk, if someone buys a modest house on a mortgage that represents only a small fraction of their salary and then loses their job, then they were stupid for taking a "big risk" and should be left to suffer. People stricken with a serious illness should be forced to work through it rather than get a hand. People should have their faces smashed through a windshield as an "incentive" to wear seatbelts rather than be required by law. I can't imagine anything worse than living in such a cold, inhumane world.

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Gee, good job twisting what i said. notice the word "if" at the beginning of what you quoted!

I twisted nothing, but responded to the scenario you described. If that scenario is imaginary, then no response is required.

Originally posted by LoudDog:

And who said anything about people buying modest houses they can afford then losing their jobs?

notice the word "if" at the beginning of what you quoted!
03/25/2010 10:44:44 AM · #267
Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Insurance is only unnecessary if you can afford to pay for any situation that comes up without it. Most people don't have that luxury.


What if I'm willing to take the risk to let medical debt pile up if I get sick in return for the thousands I save if I don't get sick? It's a gamble some take.


NOBODY decides to take that risk to save a few dollars. If they don't buy insurance its because they can't afford to. If you don't have access to a group plan you just about forget haveing any kind or normal insurance.

When people take the risk as you call it, they also put the general public at risk of haven't to spend money on them. Mandating insurance is the general publics way of saying that they don't want that risk.

By nobody I exclude those unable to make their own decisions.
03/25/2010 10:51:11 AM · #268
Originally posted by LoodDog:



I think it's sad. I am incapable of taking care of myselve, I am too stupid to be trusted to make my own decisions. What a great country. Thank god (or what/who ever you want) we have the dems to protect me.


This seems dead on. ;)

Message edited by author 2010-03-25 10:55:08.
03/25/2010 10:56:03 AM · #269
Originally posted by LoudDog:



Yes, 4 years of taxes before any real benefits. But yes, we only tax the rich people so we can take more from the haves and give it to the have nots. Of course most know the haves really don't pay taxes. business owners raise prices and/or lay people off, they will have one gardner instead of two, others donate less money, at the end of the day they still get their's and we'll pay for it.


*sigh* I really want to know where all these holes for getting out of paying taxes are. We make over $200K annually, but we also paid more in taxes this year than we EARNED the first two years we were married.
03/25/2010 11:17:14 AM · #270
Originally posted by Niten:

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Insurance is only unnecessary if you can afford to pay for any situation that comes up without it. Most people don't have that luxury.


What if I'm willing to take the risk to let medical debt pile up if I get sick in return for the thousands I save if I don't get sick? It's a gamble some take.


NOBODY decides to take that risk to save a few dollars.


Bullshit. My neighbor has a $600,000 house, two brand new full size trucks, and a fairly new boat. He went a year without health insurance for his family because his business slowed down and he had to cut cost somewhere. I doubt he's the only one.
03/25/2010 11:19:40 AM · #271
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

The problem with these kinds of arguments is that life doesn't work out the way you fear it will in reality. How many democracies have socialized health care, and how many of those have the kinds of problems you all are so sure will result from socialized health care? Zero? How many of the folks who post here in the forums who have lived under both systems have said they prefer our model to the socialized health care model? Zero! So if you want to engage in an intellectual exercise about what might happen if we inch closer to universal health care, that's fine. But let's not pretend these arguments are anything more than straw-man arguments intended to frighten people or make them feel ashamed. The only reason so many Americans fall for these kinds of falsehoods is because so many of us have never stepped foot beyond our own borders.


problem is, this isn't socialized health care.
03/25/2010 11:20:33 AM · #272
Originally posted by shamrock:

Originally posted by LoudDog:



Yes, 4 years of taxes before any real benefits. But yes, we only tax the rich people so we can take more from the haves and give it to the have nots. Of course most know the haves really don't pay taxes. business owners raise prices and/or lay people off, they will have one gardner instead of two, others donate less money, at the end of the day they still get their's and we'll pay for it.


*sigh* I really want to know where all these holes for getting out of paying taxes are. We make over $200K annually, but we also paid more in taxes this year than we EARNED the first two years we were married.


Maybe you could ask Warren?

"To help pay for the rescue, the government should raise taxes on the wealthy, Mr. Buffett suggested. ďIím paying the lowest tax rate that Iíve ever paid in my life,Ē he said. ďNow, thatís crazy"

" The very rich in America pay taxes at a lower rate than most working people, private-equity partners enjoy some of the lowest tax rates of all. At a fund-raiser in New York last month, Warren Buffett: "This is what Congress in its wisdom did: the 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do...'"

The real question is how much to you have to gross to net over 200k. The ones they are trying to tax IMO are the ones that really make way more than 200k.
03/25/2010 11:21:35 AM · #273
Originally posted by Niten:

Originally posted by LoodDog:



I think it's sad. I am incapable of taking care of myselve, I am too stupid to be trusted to make my own decisions. What a great country. Thank god (or what/who ever you want) we have the dems to protect me.


This seems dead on. ;)


is it a site violation to intentionally mis quote someone, commiting libel?
03/25/2010 11:23:16 AM · #274
Originally posted by shamrock:

Originally posted by LoudDog:



Yes, 4 years of taxes before any real benefits. But yes, we only tax the rich people so we can take more from the haves and give it to the have nots. Of course most know the haves really don't pay taxes. business owners raise prices and/or lay people off, they will have one gardner instead of two, others donate less money, at the end of the day they still get their's and we'll pay for it.


*sigh* I really want to know where all these holes for getting out of paying taxes are. We make over $200K annually, but we also paid more in taxes this year than we EARNED the first two years we were married.


hire a better tax person/financial planner
03/25/2010 11:25:00 AM · #275
Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by SDW:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by SDW:

Tell me when I can sign my family up for insurance since we don't have any and we now fall below the federal poverty line.

Not until 2014, unfortunately. It'll take a while to set up the exchanges.

So four years of taxes before any benefit.

What taxes? Unless you use a tanning bed or make more than $200,000, what are you talking about?


Yes, 4 years of taxes before any real benefits. But yes, we only tax the rich people so we can take more from the haves and give it to the have nots. Of course most know the haves really don't pay taxes. business owners raise prices and/or lay people off, they will have one gardner instead of two, others donate less money, at the end of the day they still get their's and we'll pay for it.


Can we stop with this "haves" and "have nots" crap? Money, or how much you make, or the ownership of material goods needs to STOP being the measuring stick of what a person is worth.

Ever look at the salary of a child-care worker? A teacher? Any number of other professions where people are doing a lot of good every day for very little compensation compared to big business? Amazingly enough, many of these lower-income people are the ones that don't mind, at all, paying more taxes for more social benefits, because they're the ones that are actually IN TOUCH with society of all levels, and see, on a daily basis, how a little help can go a long way.

However, people like you always tend to only focus on themselves, don't they? It's always "how dare you take money from ME." "How dare you involve yourself in MY life." "How dare you interfere in MY choices." Without ever actually taking the time to actually understand or care about the symbiosis of ALL of society that affects you in the first place.

The level of pure disconnect is, quite frankly, shocking and depressing.
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