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01/30/2010 11:34:23 AM · #26
Originally posted by farfel53:

I don't think most of us are opposed to reform of our health care system. What we do oppose are closed door deals, loads of pork, giveaways, secrets and a headlong rush to get "something" done before we all find out what it is. We are, as Americans, "generally" opposed to socialism, as we feel it lets the government mandate things that should be our responsibilities, giving over private decisions to public officials whose main objective is keeping their jobs. It also involves spending public money on benefits the like of which lots of us would not approve.
I would like very much to see every citizen of this country covered. I don't want every citizen fleeced. I would like to see competition in insurance, mobility of insurance across state lines (this is a free country, no?), and some limits on malpractice awards that could bring down physician insurance costs, and therefore ours as well. I hate fat deals and crooked politicians of any party. I don't want any responsibility for freeloaders and cheaters and illegals.
I hope we can debate openly and honestly and someday arrive at equitable solutions. If there are any, they will be transparent, clean, and stand up to scrutiny under bright light.


Agree!!
01/30/2010 11:40:30 AM · #27
Originally posted by VitaminB:

Originally posted by FocusPoint:

I think this subject should have been brought up after the economy fixed and unemployment dropped from 10%... If people find work and earn money, insurance problem comes second... They are trying to push this now so jobless people wouldn't feel so bad not having jobs, since there is health insurance for them (I am included into 10% sadly)

Issues need to be fixed in order for US,

#1 economy, #2 Unemployment, #3 Health-care reform

They (Dems) go the other way, and that's why people are very angry. By the way, I really don't like Bush, I can't believe our other option was "Global Warming" Gore at that time :|


If the Dems have the same three top priorities, but just decide to tackle them in a different order, why should that make people so angry?

Some may argue that Health Care reform is fixing the economy. With expectations that Medicare be bankrupt within 10 years, the health care system needs to be reformed first, so that the cost of providing Medicare is affordable. Especially with the baby boom reaching Medicare age.


I agree. I do not want the government to tell me I have to buy something.I want to be free to choose for myself. Yes,it needs reformed but not so drastically. And most people are aginst something that is being forced on them.If they get buy with this (control) what will be next?
01/30/2010 03:37:29 PM · #28
Just found a really cool site on debates... debatepedia.

Here is their debate on having a publicly funded health care system in the US:
//wiki.idebate.org/en/index.php/Debate:_Public_insurance_option_in_US_health_care
01/30/2010 03:48:22 PM · #29
Originally posted by JulietNN:

I don't have health insurance, I used to have health insurance this is the breakdown of what it cost.

Started off as 150 dollars a month, before I had children, then got to my 'prime' (Insurance speak) childbearing years, went up to 300 a month.

Had 3 kids, it went up to 786 dollars a month. Nearly 10,000 a year. At that point I was earning 28,000 minus the 10 grand, brought me down to 18 grand a year, taxes, down to say 16 grand a year, etc etc. So a family of 4 had to live on 16 grand a year, I was lucky and don't have a mortgage, but if I had a mortgage, car bills general bills, household bills, food, clothes etc, you can see it gets pretty damn tight towards the end.

This was just for ME, no kids on the insurance plan at all.

So i got a better job and ditched the insurance.

Now we are self pay, and we hope that we don''t get really sick. On average I go to the Doctors 3 times a year at 50 dollars a go (same with the kids), yes it would have been nice to have insurance last year when i was very sick, but i didn't, you just have to weigh up the pro's and cons.


My employer requires you to tke the insurance. So if I wanted to be self-pay I couldn't. With Obama's plan, people who do not pay for insurance will get fined! I do not feel the government should have the right to force a person to spend money on insurance over possibly putting food on the table for their children.
01/30/2010 03:55:38 PM · #30
Originally posted by FocusPoint:


By the way, those who don't know who Glenn Back is, try to watch one or two program of his... He does teach US history that I think everyone should aware of.


I've watched. He's just another FOX gasbag. He doesn't really "teach" anything.

And it's Glenn Beck.

Message edited by author 2010-01-30 15:56:22.
01/30/2010 04:02:14 PM · #31
A lot of the arguments against the US Health Reform are sickeningly parallel to those used to justify the Nazi's Eugenics programs
01/30/2010 04:05:44 PM · #32
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by kenskid:

Can I get some pre existing car insurance? I have a big dent in my fender. I did this last year?


As far as I know, it's illegal to drive without some form of insurance......
I've watched. He's just another FOX gasbag. He doesn't really "teach" anything.


Yep, LIABILITY insurance, which fixes the other driver's car, if you are the one at fault.
Impossible to teach someone who already knows everything.
01/30/2010 04:16:03 PM · #33
Originally posted by FocusPoint:


By the way, those who don't know who Glenn Back is, try to watch one or two program of his... He does teach US history that I think everyone should aware of.


I love the American sense of irony and sarcasm. ;)

Message edited by author 2010-01-30 16:17:20.
01/30/2010 04:39:36 PM · #34
Every time this topic comes up our American friends start shouting about those who are going to rip off the system and steal all the money paid by everyone else who has contributed to the Health Service. And they are right, cos there are those in the UK who do rip off the Health Service here.

But the truth of the matter is we all pay from the day we start working until the day we stop working, it is not a vast amount and it ensures free, yes FREE medical treatment for all, no matter how rich or how poor. The rich pay more from their earnings and the poor pay less, what an amazing system that works most of the time. No insurance to pay each month, no selling your homes to pay the bills. It is FREE!

Anyone who has been unlucky enough to have needed medical treatment here can sleep at night knowing they are not going to be faced by a huge bill for treatment. I know, I have had Cancer, so has my wife, we still live in exactly the same way, no debts to repay. We are both back at work and paying our share to the Health Service. Okay, it is not perfect, it is top heavy with managerial staff, but we all know that when we need it, it is there to save our lives. Maybe this sounds too melodramatic, but that's the way it is in the UK.

I know the US people don't like their Government running their lives, but I think to have a life and a future is more important than mere politics. Perhaps the people in the US need to look at their own Health system and reassess whether insurance with all its faults is really a better way than regular stoppages from wages and FREE medical care is the way forward.

I don't want to berate the US system, but I know where I would rather live and which system I would rather pay towards.
01/30/2010 05:21:48 PM · #35
Originally posted by Basta:

Originally I was for it.. After I read that Insurance companies and lobby's are all for National Health Care....HELL NOOOOOO.... IF THEY ARE FOR IT, IT CAN'T BE GOOD FOR ME

I'm a bit confused by this, unless it is meant ironically. The insurance companies and the bulk of the lobbyists have been fighting health care reform, not supporting it.


Originally posted by shamrock:

I'd say it's because Americans are so opposed to anything they consider "socialism" (without even understanding what the word means), and most Americans are incapable of true logical thought. But that's just my impression.

A sweeping generalization, but not far from the truth. I think many are against it because it is the Democrats behind the reform. Even in this thread you'll notice were getting the expected reactions from the Fox News listeners. The demonization of Obama for having the audacity to try to get health care for everyone continues. Now the same forces that were behind getting rid of the public option are the ones decrying back-room deals -- when the bulk of those deals were made trying to appease them!

01/30/2010 05:29:29 PM · #36
The insurance companies are all for mandatory insurance, but not for a "public option". When the senate version passed (without such public option), their stock went up quickly. Wonder why...

Message edited by author 2010-01-30 17:29:55.
01/30/2010 05:30:44 PM · #37
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by FocusPoint:


By the way, those who don't know who Glenn Beck is, try to watch one or two program of his... He does teach US history that I think everyone should aware of.


I've watched. He's just another FOX gasbag. He doesn't really "teach" anything...


Fox gasbag? wow... that's what I like about "you people"... you are very nice.

I watch CNN too.. It's kind of painful but "sometimes" they do walk close to middle.

Thanks for fixing my spelling error though, I appreciated it ;) you're the best :|

FP
01/30/2010 05:35:23 PM · #38
Originally posted by FocusPoint:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by FocusPoint:


By the way, those who don't know who Glenn Beck is, try to watch one or two program of his... He does teach US history that I think everyone should aware of.


I've watched. He's just another FOX gasbag. He doesn't really "teach" anything...


Fox gasbag? wow... that's what I like about "you people"... you are very nice.

I watch CNN too.. It's kind of painful but "sometimes" they do walk close to middle.

Thanks for fixing my spelling error though, I appreciated it ;) you're the best :|

FP


Whatever way you wish to paint it, Glenn Beck is an extremist that is employed to do one thing, get viewers. Any way he can. He's an entertainer, and he'll say ANYthing he needs to, in order to do that job. People should trust as much that comes out of his vocal cords as they should that comes out of Jon Stewart's. Unfortunately, he's employed by an agency that likes to pretend that they're an actual news agency, so people foolishly give him more 'respect' or legitimacy than he deserves, by far.
By FAR.
01/30/2010 05:39:32 PM · #39
Here's the document in PDF form if you want to read it.
HR 3200 PDF


01/30/2010 05:40:34 PM · #40
Will you guys ever address issues, or will you only attack personalities? So what if he's a gasbag? What about constitutional issues, what about special deals for unions, what about super-honey for Nebraska and Louisiana? What about mandates to buy insurance, fines if you don't? Lets quit hitting Glen Back and hit the ideas.
01/30/2010 05:52:18 PM · #41
For all those who don't trust the government and don't believe what they are being told I have to wonder who you think is providing the information you all seem so eager to quote? It is not the government. It is the insurance companies. It is drug companies. It is every special interest group out there. The thing that scares me the most about my country is how willing we are to trust the information of talking head shock jocks over all others. If you read the arguments against they mainly lie in two areas. We do not trust the government to run anything and we do not want to be forced into any mandatory system that may cost us money. The first is fostered by those who have a vested interest to kill a program so they can continue to use us to make money. The second is based on the false assumption that the present system is not already costing you big bucks.

I worked in the emergency service system for 30 years. I can tell you that those who are not covered have only one entry point into the system, the emergency room. That is the highest cost portion of the health care system and we all pay it in the end either through taxes or inflated health care premiums. I can also tell you that most (certainly not all) people are not lazy and have not chosen to live their life in poverty or on the streets. They are not gaming the system.

With all that said I have to say that I have not been in favor of the present health care reform proposal. Mainly because it does not go far enough to solve the problems. The only real solution is a single payer system. That is the only way that costs will be controlled so our government does not go broke. It is the only way to assure 100% coverage. It is the only way to get a handle on the abuses which I'm sure many here will disagree with due to the mistrust issue. It is the only way that we will have the power to negotiate down drug costs and the like.

Look, I have a Cadillac health care plan. My grown kids have Cadillac health care plans. I can afford the premiums. I stand to gain the least in this deal yet I support it because it is the right thing to do.

For a moment try to stop being so distrustful or full of prejudice or hate (you can shut off Beck and the like to accomplish a large part of that) and think for a moment about your kids and grandkids who may not be so lucky as you in the future. Many are just one step away from those we look at as the lazy and gamers of the system. For a moment think of what is right to do for the many and stop using the few as an excuse.

Sorry, I had to get it out.
01/30/2010 05:56:22 PM · #42
As a Fox news listener I championed the notion of Obama taking on health care since we all know that the system needs to be fixed. Unfortunately Obama is not living up to his promises of transparency in the process - something most Americans expected him to do. I don't support back room deals because they are inherently wrong (this has nothing to do with party affiliation). Even Obama knew this which is why he promised C-Span would document the health care reform process while he campaigned for office. Transparency would help make sure the reform is real and effective. The secrecy is symptomatic of corrupt power politics as usual.

I think you initially had a majority of Americans that was comprised of both Liberals and Conservatives who, like me, backed the notion of health care reform at Obama's election. Unfortunately he has not delivered on his promises and this is looking like nothing more than more of the same old politicians acquiring power and control of money and freedom. The recent elections in New Jersey, Virginia, Massachusetts and even the close call in New York can be interpreted as direct rebukes of the current administration going against the ideas of fairness and transparency that most Americans, no matter how stupid some of you may think we are, hold as fundamental to being free and independent.

There is nothing the US Government runs or has run that leads most critical thinkers to conclude that it can take over health care and have this result in increased quality and better efficiency as promised. Obama had an opportunity but he's really blown it and proven himself to be a great campaign talker but a rather lacking in the ability to govern.


01/30/2010 05:58:14 PM · #43
Originally posted by farfel53:

Will you guys ever address issues, or will you only attack personalities? So what if he's a gasbag? What about constitutional issues, what about special deals for unions, what about super-honey for Nebraska and Louisiana? What about mandates to buy insurance, fines if you don't? Lets quit hitting Glen Back and hit the ideas.


Yet again, a case of stunning irony. ;)

I'd say we are all f***ed unless people wise up to how messed up and wrong pseudo-democratic late capitalism is. I'm already embarrassed for when the aliens arrive. 'Oh, this? (desperately trying to sweep nations full of the starving and dead under the carpet) um, we made a bit of a mess. But look at this! An Ipad! And this is Avatar. It cost $500 million don't you know!'

Just looking at the wider picture.

Message edited by author 2010-01-30 18:02:25.
01/30/2010 05:59:44 PM · #44
Originally posted by K10DGuy:

... He's an entertainer, and he'll say ANYthing he needs to, in order to do that job...


I think when it comes to TV, almost everything is entertaining, including CNN and others... just like American Idol... I prefer listening to Beck though or some CNN stuff.. but most, I follow the congress/house on c-span... I am not closed minded guy, I listen to both sides.. whichever sounds true to me (more), I also listen to them more.

So, ok, they are entertainer, c-span is not. Sometimes boring but that channel shows whatever goes on in the senate and house... If Beck or Blitzer are doing "ANYthing" to glue viewers so their company could sell some soda, I think c-span should be the best place for everyone to go check out from time to time.
01/30/2010 06:02:46 PM · #45
Jeff, I agree with you that Obama's first year has been a disappointment. Sorry if I painted (a Fox viewer) with a broad paintbrush you don't deserve.

I *do* think that part of his failure has been because things have been business as usual. I think it wears me down though when people who didn't seem to mind a lack of transparency (to name one of many problems) in the Bush administration are suddenly rabid to decry it in the Obama administration. I also think some of the "business as usual" is due to Obama's efforts to appease Republicans, e.g., appointing conservatives to his cabinet.
01/30/2010 06:13:52 PM · #46
Originally posted by farfel53:

Will you guys ever address issues, or will you only attack personalities? So what if he's a gasbag? What about constitutional issues, what about special deals for unions, what about super-honey for Nebraska and Louisiana? What about mandates to buy insurance, fines if you don't? Lets quit hitting Glen Back and hit the ideas.


Here is an Idea.....
Lets all just shut up and take it .... ,because WE have no choice.
Politicians will do whatever they like , and sell us story how thats good for USA and Global warming, or whatever...don't forget , they are a good guys, they contributed to Haiti ( and yes only a cent on a dollar make it there, how else will they pay for reelection) or anything else that will help them get elected again...your latter to a representative is taken care of by an aide.
If even for a second you think that ANY politician is doing anything for your good (unless you work for the SAM), You are delusional...... Take a guess what is ONLY thing they care about.

Democrat???? Republican???? you are all same to them ... just a sheep... well piggy bank would be more like it, and if they have to break that piggy to get a cent...

DIVIDE ET IMPERA
01/30/2010 06:22:38 PM · #47
Well said, Larry. The hypocrisy inherent in party loyalty over policy substance is frustrating and it distracts people from addressing the true problems we are dealing with.

For the record, I couldn't stand Bush's "Patriot Act" assault on personal freedom (as well as many other things in his administration). But I am just as incensed at Obama's empty arrogance and lack of delivering on what he promised to be a fair and transparent process for fixing health care. This leads me to conclude that we were all just being played, yet again, and I find that infuriating.

How about some real and open reform? Wouldn't that get us all what we need regarding the health care mess we're in? And what's with this being in a hurry BS? Establishing false deadlines insures the kinds of back room deals like we saw in Nebraska and Louisiana (and those are just the ones we know about). Something this complicated and important should be done in a fair and deliberative manner. Doing so would help prevent the situation we're in now where the train is so far off the tracks we don't know whether to salvage it or to start over.

Unfortunately this is simply turning out to be a repeat of Hillary Care with all the secrets, obfuscation and overreach - inherently suspect for most Americans no matter how stupid.
01/30/2010 06:25:18 PM · #48
we here ( NZ) also have a system similar to the british one and although not perfect it works at no cost to the ill, I have been in the hospital here several times and have had excellent treatment all free.
01/30/2010 06:26:17 PM · #49
Originally posted by yakatme:

The root problem with health care system in this country is not the cost of health insurance. It's the cost of the care (treatment) itself due to greed, frivilous malpractice suits, and abuse of the government subsidized assistance programs already in place.

1) My 20 minute knee surgery billed a total of $20,000. That's ridiculous.

2) Some lawsuits are warranted, most are extreme and abusive which require doctors and hospitals to overcharge us to compensate for their legal defense and malpractice insurance.

3) There are doctors who prey on tenants with no next of kin at certain (and cooperative) nursing homes , so that they can manipulate their cases to become candidates for elective surgery so that these doctors can submit huge numbers of claims to medicare and/or medicade. My girlfriend who used to work as a nurse at one of these surgical centers was disgusted that many of these elderly patients had no idea why they were even there.

4) My girlfriend also worked at a hospital's psychiatric ward in which patients walked in and out of the facility through somewhat of a 'revolving door' based on when the government subsidies for their care ran out and when they could return to start a new claim on the patient. Upon leaving, the staff sometimes says things like "see you soon" or "come back next week".

The current health care reform proposals currently being debated would certainly widen the door for these types of abuses.

We should be scrutinizing, instead, ways of lower the costs of the actual treatment itself. Healthy people shouldn't have to pay exorbitant amounts of money for routine care. Insurance shouldn't be necessary to ensure reasonable care of one's health but should instead be available for the unexpected major illness.

This is what our focus should be on first: cost of health care, not health insurance.

edit for clarity


I concur...
01/30/2010 06:30:17 PM · #50
Originally posted by Basta:

, they contributed to Haiti ( and yes only a cent on a dollar make it there, how else will they pay for reelection) or anything else that will help them get elected again...


And there is, perhaps, a case to be made that the many deaths in Haiti could be, in part, connected to US foreign policy in that area in the first place (support of a coup to overthrow an elected government leading to yet more wealth division and badly built shanty houses) Still, there are always oppotunities to be made

Message edited by author 2010-01-30 18:34:03.
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