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01/30/2010 06:37:02 PM · #51
Originally posted by kiwinick:

we here ( NZ) also have a system similar to the british one and although not perfect it works at no cost to the ill, I have been in the hospital here several times and have had excellent treatment all free.


that sounds ok,
How they are going to do it in USA . Insurance company will send a bill to every citizen , kind of like second tax bill, and WE have to pay....If you can not pay, government charge us penalty ( as you can see, its a win -win situation for insurance and government) .... so its not health care, its more like" TAX on Being alive"
01/30/2010 06:51:33 PM · #52
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by Basta:

, they contributed to Haiti ( and yes only a cent on a dollar make it there, how else will they pay for reelection) or anything else that will help them get elected again...


And there is, perhaps, a case to be made that the many deaths in Haiti could be, in part, connected to US foreign policy in that area in the first place (support of a coup to overthrow an elected government leading to yet more wealth division and badly built shanty houses) Still, there are always oppotunities to be made


sorry, I'm not into theories like that, I was just making a reference how Politicians will , and can manipulate situations.

My opinion>Last time I looked at the list of US states, Haiti was not there.... therefore US should stay away ( same goes for countless places all over this globe)
01/30/2010 07:03:55 PM · #53
Originally posted by Basta:

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by Basta:

, they contributed to Haiti ( and yes only a cent on a dollar make it there, how else will they pay for reelection) or anything else that will help them get elected again...


And there is, perhaps, a case to be made that the many deaths in Haiti could be, in part, connected to US foreign policy in that area in the first place (support of a coup to overthrow an elected government leading to yet more wealth division and badly built shanty houses) Still, there are always oppotunities to be made


sorry, I'm not into theories like that, I was just making a reference how Politicians will , and can manipulate situations.


Indeed. I quite agree.

Originally posted by Basta:

My opinion>Last time I looked at the list of US states, Haiti was not there.... therefore US should stay away ( same goes for countless places all over this globe)


Yet again, i agree (in a way) . We agree a lot i think.

Message edited by author 2010-01-30 19:08:48.
01/30/2010 07:13:18 PM · #54
I think it's tragic how the response to Haiti's disaster compares to the response to Katrina on our own soil.
The U.S. is eager to help others, but doesn't give enough of a shit about it's own citizens to mobilize effectively.

It's closed-minded to simply think that because Haiti is a different country that the US has no business helping, when the U.S. and the French are, to a great degree, responsible for Haiti being the way it is.
01/30/2010 07:14:39 PM · #55
Originally posted by Basta:


My opinion>Last time I looked at the list of US states, Haiti was not there.... therefore US should stay away ( same goes for countless places all over this globe)


You''re not that familiar with the history of US foreign policy then i'm guessing. Here's a tip: The terrorists don't hate America and the West because of our freedom. Thats one of the most idiotic lies ever.
01/30/2010 07:19:42 PM · #56
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

I think it's tragic how the response to Haiti's disaster compares to the response to Katrina on our own soil.
The U.S. is eager to help others, but doesn't give enough of a shit about it's own citizens to mobilize effectively.


I don't think thats true is it? There were quite fumbled aid in both cases. But it is very obvious that Big Business doesn't give a shit about anyone. 'Shock Doctrine'
01/30/2010 07:25:16 PM · #57
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

I think it's tragic how the response to Haiti's disaster compares to the response to Katrina on our own soil.
The U.S. is eager to help others, but doesn't give enough of a shit about it's own citizens to mobilize effectively.


I don't think thats true is it? There were quite fumbled aid in both cases. But it is very obvious that Big Business doesn't give a shit about anyone. 'Shock Doctrine'


The US response was mobilized in Haiti within hours, or at most a day or two. N.O., it took a week or more.

It helped that there were already aid workers in Haiti, but still.
01/30/2010 07:27:23 PM · #58
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

I think it's tragic how the response to Haiti's disaster compares to the response to Katrina on our own soil.
The U.S. is eager to help others, but doesn't give enough of a shit about it's own citizens to mobilize effectively.

It's closed-minded to simply think that because Haiti is a different country that the US has no business helping, when the U.S. and the French are, to a great degree, responsible for Haiti being the way it is.


Call it whatever you like, But it is a Different Country....and again ....NOT USA.....
Private person can send all the help they like, they can use corrupt agencies like "THE RED CROSS" (remember how well they did after 9/11, I mean how well president of Red Cross did pocketing millions of $)

USA always wants to HELP..... remember Somalia? They don't want help, they just want $,$$$,$$$,$$$.$$
Best part is , USA is expected to send Help, Because USA is big and rich , and all that.....WE ARE IN DEBT UP TO OUR EYE BALLS.....WAKE UP
01/30/2010 07:27:58 PM · #59
Originally posted by acg83:

I've just read an article on the BBC website here which made for an interesting if not slightly baffling read on the reaction by Americans to proposed US health reforms.


That's a great article.

It is quite scary that anti-intellectualism is such a powerful debate tool. It is in evidence throughout this thread.

Message edited by author 2010-01-30 19:28:38.
01/30/2010 07:31:38 PM · #60
Give credit where credit is due. It has alot to do with what Adminstration is in power. New Orleans was bungled by a FEMA headed by a political hack who should have never had the job. FEMA was the lead agency. Hati was a combination of the military under order of Obama and FEMA S&R teams headed by a new group of people.
01/30/2010 07:38:28 PM · #61
Originally posted by Basta:


Best part is , USA is expected to send Help, Because USA is big and rich , and all that.....WE ARE IN DEBT UP TO OUR EYE BALLS.....WAKE UP


Dude, you need to WAKE UP to how USA is in many ways implicit in much of the outside worlds affairs and problems anyway. I think you're fooling yourself if you think that the US is just a big brother that others run to in times of need because it is rich. Jeez. Wake up mate!

Message edited by author 2010-01-30 19:39:23.
01/30/2010 07:41:08 PM · #62
Originally posted by acg83:

I've just read an article on the BBC website here which made for an interesting if not slightly baffling read on the reaction by Americans to proposed US health reforms.



BTW - This is an interesting and I suspect very accurate article. The problem is it offers no solution and seems that there may be none. We are doomed to our distrust that, as far as I'm concerned, people with real power like to foster. That is how they keep their power.
01/30/2010 07:53:54 PM · #63
Originally posted by jbsmithana:

Originally posted by acg83:

I've just read an article on the BBC website here which made for an interesting if not slightly baffling read on the reaction by Americans to proposed US health reforms.



BTW - This is an interesting and I suspect very accurate article. The problem is it offers no solution and seems that there may be none. We are doomed to our distrust that, as far as I'm concerned, people with real power like to foster. That is how they keep their power.


Yea, people are shit bonking stupid. I'm just waiting for the Anti-Rapture. Maybe i'll get some peace.
01/30/2010 08:01:30 PM · #64
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by Basta:


Best part is , USA is expected to send Help, Because USA is big and rich , and all that.....WE ARE IN DEBT UP TO OUR EYE BALLS.....WAKE UP


Dude, you need to WAKE UP to how USA is in many ways implicit in much of the outside worlds affairs and problems anyway. I think you're fooling yourself if you think that the US is just a big brother that others run to in times of need because it is rich. Jeez. Wake up mate!


You can call me idiotic ( in your previous post) , or whatever you like. I'm not about to explain sarcasm. USA is gifting money left an right ( Palestine, Israel, Columbia, Egypt...it's a long ...long and boring list) ....money that we (USA) is borrowing from China, Russia. and such ....so we borrow and pay interest on money we gift...you can sleep, you don't have to pay that off....
01/30/2010 08:20:54 PM · #65
LOL....Clive...your reply is too funny ! The US is implicit....Hahahahha...oh well, at least Obama agrees with you. He had his apology tour last spring.

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by Basta:


Best part is , USA is expected to send Help, Because USA is big and rich , and all that.....WE ARE IN DEBT UP TO OUR EYE BALLS.....WAKE UP


Dude, you need to WAKE UP to how USA is in many ways implicit in much of the outside worlds affairs and problems anyway. I think you're fooling yourself if you think that the US is just a big brother that others run to in times of need because it is rich. Jeez. Wake up mate!
01/30/2010 08:22:51 PM · #66
Originally posted by Basta:

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by Basta:


Best part is , USA is expected to send Help, Because USA is big and rich , and all that.....WE ARE IN DEBT UP TO OUR EYE BALLS.....WAKE UP


Dude, you need to WAKE UP to how USA is in many ways implicit in much of the outside worlds affairs and problems anyway. I think you're fooling yourself if you think that the US is just a big brother that others run to in times of need because it is rich. Jeez. Wake up mate!


You can call me idiotic ( in your previous post) , or whatever you like. I'm not about to explain sarcasm. USA is gifting money left an right ( Palestine, Israel, Columbia, Egypt...it's a long ...long and boring list) ....money that we (USA) is borrowing from China, Russia. and such ....so we borrow and pay interest on money we gift...you can sleep, you don't have to pay that off....


Nope. Didn't call you idiotic at all. I said, ' The terrorists don't hate America and the West because of our 'freedom'. Thats one of the most idiotic lies ever. '. Wasn't directed at you at all. For what its worth, i really don't want to fight with you, and i'm sorry if it comes across that way or if you feel i'm going on at you. I think i might have derailed this thread a bit anyway. Friends? We're all in this together!

Message edited by author 2010-01-30 21:01:21.
01/30/2010 08:25:39 PM · #67
Originally posted by kenskid:

LOL....Clive...your reply is too funny ! The US is implicit....Hahahahha...oh well, at least Obama agrees with you. He had his apology tour last spring.

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by Basta:


Best part is , USA is expected to send Help, Because USA is big and rich , and all that.....WE ARE IN DEBT UP TO OUR EYE BALLS.....WAKE UP


Dude, you need to WAKE UP to how USA is in many ways implicit in much of the outside worlds affairs and problems anyway. I think you're fooling yourself if you think that the US is just a big brother that others run to in times of need because it is rich. Jeez. Wake up mate!


Well, it's wonderful that you think that the US hasn't had any influence on the international stage for the last 100 years or so. I really can't agree with you. (p.s Are you mad?)
01/30/2010 08:27:08 PM · #68
Mad? Ha...no...I just wonder how an anti-capitalist like yourself can bring yourself to participate in a discussion on a 100% for profit website.

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by kenskid:

LOL....Clive...your reply is too funny ! The US is implicit....Hahahahha...oh well, at least Obama agrees with you. He had his apology tour last spring.

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by Basta:


Best part is , USA is expected to send Help, Because USA is big and rich , and all that.....WE ARE IN DEBT UP TO OUR EYE BALLS.....WAKE UP


Dude, you need to WAKE UP to how USA is in many ways implicit in much of the outside worlds affairs and problems anyway. I think you're fooling yourself if you think that the US is just a big brother that others run to in times of need because it is rich. Jeez. Wake up mate!


Well, it's wonderful that you think that the US hasn't had any influence on the international stage for the last 100 years or so. I really can't agree with you. (p.s Are you mad?)
01/30/2010 08:31:06 PM · #69
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by Basta:

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by Basta:


Best part is , USA is expected to send Help, Because USA is big and rich , and all that.....WE ARE IN DEBT UP TO OUR EYE BALLS.....WAKE UP


Dude, you need to WAKE UP to how USA is in many ways implicit in much of the outside worlds affairs and problems anyway. I think you're fooling yourself if you think that the US is just a big brother that others run to in times of need because it is rich. Jeez. Wake up mate!


You can call me idiotic ( in your previous post) , or whatever you like. I'm not about to explain sarcasm. USA is gifting money left an right ( Palestine, Israel, Columbia, Egypt...it's a long ...long and boring list) ....money that we (USA) is borrowing from China, Russia. and such ....so we borrow and pay interest on money we gift...you can sleep, you don't have to pay that off....


Nope. Didn't call you idiotic at all. I said, ' The terrorists don't hate America and the West because of our [b]freedom. Thats one of the most idiotic lies ever. [/b]. Wasn't directed at you at all. For what its worth, i really don't want to fight with you, and i'm sorry if it comes across that way or if you feel i'm going on at you. I think i might have derailed this thread a bit anyway. Friends? We're all in this together!


this is internet, I don't take it serious, it's just a debate, difference in views and opinions....we can't be in this together, you are in Wales, and you can have opinion but you are not in a same boat..
and yes, this is way of topic.
01/30/2010 08:34:46 PM · #70
Originally posted by kenskid:

Mad? Ha...no...I just wonder how an anti-capitalist like yourself can bring yourself to participate in a discussion on a 100% for profit website


I know, i hate myself. Thanks for pointing it out. (sigh)
01/30/2010 08:37:28 PM · #71
Originally posted by Basta:


this is internet, I don't take it serious, it's just a debate, difference in views and opinions....we can't be in this together, you are in Wales, and you can have opinion but you are not in a same boat..
and yes, this is way of topic.


Yup, quite agree. I do think i have derailed the US heathcare thread a bit so apologies all round for that. As you were. :)
01/30/2010 09:24:09 PM · #72
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by Basta:


this is internet, I don't take it serious, it's just a debate, difference in views and opinions....we can't be in this together, you are in Wales, and you can have opinion but you are not in a same boat..
and yes, this is way of topic.


Yup, quite agree. I do think i have derailed the US heathcare thread a bit so apologies all round for that. As you were. :)


No need to apologize. Stupidity derailed it already.

Message edited by author 2010-01-30 22:49:29.
01/30/2010 10:39:58 PM · #73
There is no such thing as "free" health care, there are just different ways to pay for it. The problems with government run health care systems are well-known as are the problems with the US system. There seem to be many ways to improve both types of systems but there are constraints like cost, efficiency and effectiveness. Those constraints exist in every system and it's the constraints that people question. Or at least I think they rightly should because there are trade-offs and different ways to set up any system.

To respond to the OP's question (even though it was laughably condescending), I think most Americans are nervous that a system run by a government that hasn't done so in the past will have too many problems, and be constrained in the wrong ways, at least initially. Seems rational when you consider that even those governments that have been doing this a while are having real problems with it.

In that regard, I'll gladly compare my health insurance and available health care with any national system. The issue here in the US, and it's a very serious one, is that too many Americans do not have coverage like mine. I'm not sure that there is only one solution, or that questioning a proposed solution makes Americans stupid.
01/30/2010 11:44:24 PM · #74
Originally posted by kenskid:

Mad? Ha...no...I just wonder how an anti-capitalist like yourself can bring yourself to participate in a discussion on a 100% for profit website

Do you mean DPC? Where one can register and participate in many aspects for free? And how does the fact that the people running this site are making a living from it in any way mean an "anti-capitalist" has to compromise his values to be here? I don't think of this as a "100% for profit website" as much as a photography site. Or have I missed your point completely?
01/31/2010 10:33:43 AM · #75
Originally posted by Patents4u:

There is no such thing as "free" health care, there are just different ways to pay for it. The problems with government run health care systems are well-known as are the problems with the US system. There seem to be many ways to improve both types of systems but there are constraints like cost, efficiency and effectiveness. Those constraints exist in every system and it's the constraints that people question. Or at least I think they rightly should because there are trade-offs and different ways to set up any system.

To respond to the OP's question (even though it was laughably condescending), I think most Americans are nervous that a system run by a government that hasn't done so in the past will have too many problems, and be constrained in the wrong ways, at least initially. Seems rational when you consider that even those governments that have been doing this a while are having real problems with it.

In that regard, I'll gladly compare my health insurance and available health care with any national system. The issue here in the US, and it's a very serious one, is that too many Americans do not have coverage like mine. I'm not sure that there is only one solution, or that questioning a proposed solution makes Americans stupid.


Your absolutely right... there is no free health care. The argument though, is for Universal health care.

Found this table on Wikipedia:
Health Care Cost Comparisons

US pays more per capita, yet has a higher infant mortality rate, and lower life expectancy than the other countries on the list. There are many health care models around the globe that the US could mimic to make itself more efficient.
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