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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> How to deal with ignorance stifling creativitity?
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06/09/2004 01:40:55 PM · #1
How to deal with ignorance stifling creativitity?

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I got tons of comments basically stating my entry into sports was NOT relevant to the topic. Why, because it wasn't golf, baseball, boxing, hockey, basketball, football or any other sport on ESPN. Perhaps it should have been titled ESPN sports only!!! Or questioning whether it was a team sport. And I'm sure from some of the comments I lost a fair amount of points on this fact.

And although mostly gone in today's era there are several re-enactment groups that do in fact do this sport.

I mean if I could have posted some of the info below it would have cleared things up and ended such thoughts???

Why can't you reply to comments to your photo submission? I just feel like "ignorance" is stifling my "creativity". I mean do I avoid trying to do interesting submissions...*sigh* I just don't know what to do. I can understand the comments on positioning, cropping, lighting, those are fair and appreciated. It's the others.

As for it being a team sport. Perhaps one should check out the SCA...particularly Pennsic which pits the rival kingdoms of the East with the kingdoms of the Middle.

//www.pennsicwar.org/penn33/GENERAL/photos.html

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CLICK HERE TO SEE PROOF OF IT BEING A TEAM SPORT

So what does one do? *shrug*

(modified to reduce image download stress)

Message edited by author 2004-06-09 13:55:08.
06/09/2004 01:44:54 PM · #2
Nothing to do, just grin and bear it knowing that you have posted a great photo.

Greg
06/09/2004 01:45:43 PM · #3
Enter a basketball shot for a virtual ribbon.
Sell the SCA shot for money.

Don't mix and match your entries with your art. DPC is not a place to create treasures (though some people do). It's a place to learn how to make a very nice, clean, well composed image.

:)

M
06/09/2004 01:46:45 PM · #4
please try to limit your embedded images, or keep your image sizes small out of consideration for those users who are not on broad band.

thanks


06/09/2004 01:47:05 PM · #5
I suggest the images in this thread be converted to clickable thumbnails. They are way too large for dial-up users.

BTW, I like the fact that people try and broaden the scope of a challenge. Your images are out of the ordinary, however, fit the challenge just as much as golf does.
06/09/2004 01:49:36 PM · #6
Originally posted by theSaj:

So what does one do? *shrug*

Make a choice.

Either take pictures that you want to take and don't worry about the score you receive, or take pictures that very obviously fit the challenge and don't have any chance of receiving "doesn't fit the challenge" comments. (If you're lucky, sometimes you can even do both at the same time!)

But it doesn't do much good to "complain" about it, this has been an issue since the early days of DPC and no matter what anybody says or does, people are still going to vote the same.

And remember that the rules state, in bold:

While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly.

and some people take that very seriously. (But looking at the 3rd place winner in "Team Sports Without Players", it does make you wonder! Sometimes other aspects that make a photo "great" cause even pictures that don't "nail" the theme to ribbon! So anything is possible!)

Message edited by author 2004-06-09 13:56:31.
06/09/2004 01:52:49 PM · #7
when you get a comment it immediatly shows you who it is from so even thought you can't comment on their comment, you can send them a personal message. This happend to me with a comment I left in the multiple light sources challenge. I posed a question in my comment, the person responded and I adjusted my vote accordingly.
06/09/2004 01:55:15 PM · #8
And speaking of broad-mindedness....
Would it possibly occur to you that symbols of the christian crusades (massacres/holocaust) might not appeal to everyone as a sport?
06/09/2004 02:05:08 PM · #9
Thanks Aaron...that's a good idea....

I am new to this site and am still very new to photography. It's taking me a LOT of work just to be able to enter some of the contests (the short submission times are MY biggest challenge)....

I got knocked on my habits photo not being on topic (it was about "feeding the animals") and could not understand how people could not associate that habit. I mean...how many times does a park have a sign "DO NOT FEED THE ANIMALS" and you see everybody feeding the animals.

Oh well..., i've just been stressed, I've worked 240 hours in the past three weeks and that was like the only photo i was able to submit and i was just a tad bit bummed at the response. (and the non-photographic related negatives)....I totally appreciate photographic criticism, with regards to lighting cropping, etc. Which I agreed with...

"Would it possibly occur to you that symbols of the christian crusades (massacres/holocaust) might not appeal to everyone as a sport?"
[[[perhaps not...and anyone who deducted for that I am fine with...and just on a historical note...the massacres/holocaust were on BOTH sides of those wars). But see that sort of objection I can understand. It's akin to a Palestinian who might give a 1 to anything with Jewish symbology. But you know what...I am a christian, and I've seen a few photos on this site that were pagan, muslim or very NOT christian but very nice photos and I put aside my personal bias' of opinion and voted according to my photographic opinion. And still if you gave me a one for such imagery being included I have no issue with that and accept that as fair. *shrug* ]]]

06/09/2004 02:07:55 PM · #10
well, it takes all types, I for one usually give ones to those I think don't meet the challenge at all and recieve some myself...for instance my last entry in team sports was picture that happened to have a picture of player on a wall locker. Some interpreted the rule "Creatively capture the notion of any team sport without photographing the players themselves." to mean not even pictures of player; where I saw photographing "the players themselves" to mean players themselves, not pictures of them as elements in the shot...oh well, but overall i like the shot, and maybe the people who gave it ones liked to too but just had a difference of opinion on the rule. Still a fun challenge.
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06/09/2004 02:17:33 PM · #11
I've got photos in both challenges at the moment

One is Hallmark/Postcard Cr*p ......and doing OK

The other shot I love, is a bit out of the ordinary and a unique take on the challenge.....and it's doing poorly, just as I expected.

Steve
06/09/2004 02:26:03 PM · #12
Just checked out your profile Tallbloke....I really like your "Tree" photo....
06/09/2004 02:27:35 PM · #13
Think on this side you´ll have to be either pretty mainstream or very good to get good results. So if you are not one of the best try to fit the challenge and produce clean and simple images.

But comon theSaj, your porfile dont show the most creative or intelectual photographer on the side (not mine either) so relax and do your best and take the results as they come and try to learn from it all.
06/09/2004 02:28:15 PM · #14
I recall being confused mostly by the wording of your title...Before Football Players Wore Armour. You did send me a PM explaining that re-enacting these games is a sport and that football players wear armour of a sort. I'll concede somewhat grudgingly to the last part but I find its a stretch to consider SCA stuff team sports. You shouldn't be that surprised that many people shared this view. I don't think referring to those folks as ignorant is the best way to make your case. Should we also consider Civil War re-enactments team sporting events? In the end, people have to draw the line where they see fit. Honestly, I didn't think it was a terrific photo. I don't take off that much for not meeting the challenge. I make a vote based purely on asthetics and then knock off a score or two based on how blatently I feel the challenge was ignored. Generally, I give folks the benefit of the doubt and only shave of one number. This is what I did in your case but I still didn't care for the photo that much so the score wound up pretty low. Lots of folks vote this way (although some folks are brutal where 'doesn't meet the challenge' is concerned and will give a 1 for this).

Keep submitting but keep in mind that this is an international site and some images have strong emotional resonance, or at the other end of the spectrum, lack relevance to viewers who may not understand the cultural references.

I agree with the advice that if you want to continue being creative with the challenge guidelines then you should expect to score low. This is a popular vote so it is a bit unrealistic to expect the majority to stretch the boundaries of a given challenge to suit a particular entry.

Message edited by author 2004-06-09 14:29:21.
06/09/2004 02:33:17 PM · #15
I can relate to the mild anguish one suffers if their shot is misinterpreted or is a victim of too little lateral thought. Very often though it's just a problem of time. Some people don't have much of it and will evaluate a shot based on simple criteria of: 1. challenge brief; 2. the 'WOW!' factor and 3. technical perfection a la NeatImage et al.

I slipped up recently with the last few challenges due to lack of vision, foresight and time, but I'm back on course with my plan to only submit shots that I'd be pleased to hang on my wall or include in my portfolio - trouble is they're not very popular according to the current scores!! I'm particularly surprised at the lack of consideration my 'Waiting' shot is getting. Fascinating. ; )
06/09/2004 02:42:35 PM · #16
I tried a bit of pandering with my Threes entry (although I still did the no-no and added grain and burned a halo of light) but it didn't do to well anyway, so now I'm just going to submit what I like and hang the score. Wait 'til you see my June Free Study entry (cackling and rubbing hands). My Waiting entry got a really nice, interesting comment from a photographer I really admire (okay, it's Heida) so I could win the Brown and I'd be happy.
06/09/2004 02:46:33 PM · #17
I think it comes down to making a simple choice: Do you want to take a picture for YOU or for OTHERS? I take pictures for me, and selectively absorb the feedback I get. While I'd love to be the next Ansel Adams, I don't think you'll ever become great unless you take shots that YOU love. What I get the most out of on DPC is learning what photography techniques I enjoy viewing the most, and then trying to emulate them.

In the end my learning comes mostly from taking the shots and from critiquing other's work. Surprisingly, I don't think I've learned as much from the comments on my images. I know when I submit an awesome shot, just as I know when one is lame or average. I wouldn't get upset if I took the shot of armor and swords - you chose a subject which has limited accessibility. If you learned from setting up the shot up and editing it, then be happy and move on to the next shoot.
06/09/2004 02:48:10 PM · #18
Don't take it personally. Role playing as a team sport is a stretch. Did you really think that most voters would see it as one? Is the winner, if there is one, predetermined?

Beleive me not everyone subscribed to golf being a team sport. I knew this would be the case before entering my submision.

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I even used a Ryder Cup ball to remind voters of this TEAM golf event. It helped in some cases. With 30+ votes of 3 or under, not much though.

Like I said, don't take it personally. I knew going in that some voters would dismiss my entry as off topic, and that some would vote by the thumbnail and miss the ball. Photography is subjective. I don't think that makes anyone ingorant.
06/09/2004 03:05:35 PM · #19
Originally posted by cghubbell:

While I'd love to be the next Ansel Adams, I don't think you'll ever become great unless you take shots that YOU love. What I get the most out of on DPC is learning what photography techniques I enjoy viewing the most, and then trying to emulate them.

In the end my learning comes mostly from taking the shots and from critiquing other's work. Surprisingly, I don't think I've learned as much from the comments on my images.


I agree with so much of what you said. If your aim is to be a commercial photographer than perhaps figuring out what the people want is a good way to become better. But if you are taking photos for more asthetic reasons (I hesitate to mention the "A" word because I've received flak for it) then in the end, you need to take the kind of pictures you like.
I've gotten much more out of commenting on other's works and reading the comments left by photographers who I really admire then I've gotten from the majority of comments left for my work. A lot of the comments I've received boil down to something I have little control over and am always aware of (noisy images---I have an old camera that is under 2 MP), deliberate choices I made that others don't agree with, subject not being interesting to the viewer, doesn't meet the challenge (which is not really relevant outside the challenge).

These types of comments can give one the overall taste of the community but they don't really help one to become better at the craft. I do appreciate comments, don't get me wrong. I just don't find that I've learned anything new from 9/10ths of the ones I've received.

Looking at the work of others and making carefully considered comments which point out specifis about what works or doesn't work about the photo gets one thinking about ones own work in this way. We start to develop a habit of thinking about what we are photographing and hopefully, making more careful choices.
06/09/2004 03:08:43 PM · #20
I happen to like the shot and I did pick up on the sporting slant. Yet even the way it is shot suggests it is a single -participant. I think you said this was shot with a diffrent challenge in mind... I wonder if you were going to shoot this type of pic with the current theme in mind would you shoot it the same way or prehaps modify it somewhat. Oh, and its probably a stretch to suggest that the vote of some pretty good amatures(for the most part) will curtail creativity. Having said that it is hard to really give a lot of time to deciding what meets and what doesn't. For me however this is the critical point of the challenge.
By the way I totally disagree with my peers for awarding 1951 boxing team third place. Just naming something to meet the challenge should not count to meeting the challenge.

Message edited by author 2004-06-09 15:10:56.
06/09/2004 03:21:03 PM · #21
Originally posted by spydr:

I knew going in that some voters would dismiss my entry as off topic, and that some would vote by the thumbnail and miss the ball. Photography is subjective. I don't think that makes anyone ingorant.


Can people really do this? What a terrible way to vote! My thumbnail page doesn't seem to allow this kind of voting (I wouldn't vote this way anyway).

I pretty much accepted any sport that has teams in the Olympics, highschool, whatever, as a team sport and voted accordingly. I even accepted skydiving as a team sport because aren't there teams of skydivers who do tricks and stuff in the air?

I didn't love the golf shot, Spydr but I didn't take off for not meeting the challenge. :D I don't know anything about the Ryder cup but my high school had a golf team.
06/09/2004 04:03:26 PM · #22
Originally posted by melismatica:

Can people really do this? What a terrible way to vote! My thumbnail page doesn't seem to allow this kind of voting

No, you can't vote from the thumbnails.

What some people do (which I don't think too highly of) is "pick and choose" which photos to vote on based on the thumbnails (instead of just starting at the first picture and voting in the random order that images are presented). But to cast your initial vote, you must view the full-size image. Once you've made your initial vote, then you can adjust your rating from the thumbnail by clicking on the 1-10 scale that appears under the "voted on" photos.

Message edited by author 2004-06-09 16:04:03.
06/09/2004 04:16:35 PM · #23
Originally posted by theSaj:



So what does one do? *shrug*



Exactly.
06/09/2004 04:26:18 PM · #24
Yeah. Shrug, get over it, and find another shot.

I'm being mangled in the Waiting challenge for I know not what reason. It's a well-composed, technically fine shot. My only conjecture is that people either don't like it (though it hss a certain mood that usually gets through OK here) or think it off-challenge. I'll go for the latter, and console myself that my brain works on a more intersting way than most others...

... even if that isn't true, it remains my consolation.

Ed
06/09/2004 04:33:43 PM · #25
Originally posted by melismatica:

... I find its a stretch to consider SCA stuff team sports ... Should we also consider Civil War re-enactments team sporting events?

In the SCA events, the participants physically compete with one another for a prize, and the outcome is not predetermined. That makes it fundamentally different from historical re-enactments, whose goal is (logically enough) to replicate what actually happened, not start over and see if a different result ensues. If you consider boxing or wrestling a sport, then an SCA tournament should obviously "qualify" as well, as the only differences are the choice of weapons, purse size, and degree of TV coverage.

Now in this particular case, I think the lower example is much better at presenting the SCA as a team sport; the photo of the actual armaments (not the ones used in the tourneys) are more emblematic of their one owner, and don't really say "TEAM" the way even a football helmet might.

Most people experience swordfighting (usually in the movies) as a one-on-one or one-against-many endeavor; most people have no idea of what a melee is like, or even how a broadsword is used (Hint: NOT like fencing).

So, while I have no problem with the concept of tournaments as a team sport, I don't think this particular entry did the best job of conveying that aspect of the event to the casual and inexperienced viewer.

Message edited by author 2004-06-09 16:34:39.
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