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05/12/2010 09:36:46 AM · #1
My shot in Sports IV did ok, but none of the comments really told me anything that would explain all of the sub 4 votes. For those of us really striving to improve, feedback helps. :) (I have learned through past inquiries that I was too heavy on noise reduction, thus losing detail, but that doesn't apply here, so...here we go.

If you voted this down, please enlighten me. It's all good. If you gave me a 1, I'm ok with that, but I'd like to know what impression you had that caused the emotion to give this shot a 1. I'm ok with it all, just want to improve.

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05/12/2010 09:47:15 AM · #2
Well since I asked for advice on my shot it is only right for me to do the same when asked.

I gave your shot a 5. It was a good shot but nothing spectacular. I think a good grab trick or something would of really helped. There just isn't much action going on. You met the challenge and took a decent shot and for that I gave a 5. I probably would of gave it a 6 if you had cropped it even tighter and lost the ramp on the lower left. The border doesn't do much for it and I think it would be better without but no points off for that from me. Hope this helps.
05/12/2010 09:47:38 AM · #3
Left a comment.
05/12/2010 09:50:30 AM · #4
I didn't vote in this challenge, but would have scored it a 6 or 7. The facial details are good, as is the overall color balance. I would have liked it more if there wasn't motion blur in the hands and feet.

Some people may not have considered this to be a sport and voted it down accordingly. Not my opinion, but it's about the only reasonable explanation.

IMHO, this place is getting a bit mean. Some of the recent scoring has left me scratching my head.
05/12/2010 09:53:17 AM · #5
I didn't vote and I certainly would not have voted this a 1. I wish that I could understand the motivation behind extremely low scoring of images that clearly don't deserve it. Anyway, back to the critique...

What's wrong with the image: The motion blur to showcase the action called for in the challenge description was a great idea, but it was carried too far in that the subject is also a little blurry. Framing him in the center didn't help...it would have been better to leave some space in the image in front of him.

What's right with the image: The background motion blur is great (but see above). I really like the angle of the shot. I don't know if it is truly level or if you turned it at all, but because of the tight crop the viewer can't tell which lends to the wild, action feel to the shot.

What could have been done better: In addition to the above critique details, I would have liked for him to wear something better than a 'wife beater' tank top. I shoot a lot of kitesurfers and I prep them on what I want them to wear, either in general (no black shirts) or I sometimes get fairly specific. You might have simply taken a candid shot of a stranger, in which case you had no say as far as his attire goes. But, as a viewer of skating shots in general, we expect to see something a little more stylish, punkish, rebellious, or just different. Again, leading space in the frame for the direction that he is going and crisp focus without blur on the subject would have greatly improved this entry.

With that said, it definitely didn't deserve any 1's. I probably would have voted it a 5 or a 6, but then again, I'm picky conservative in handing out higher scores.
05/12/2010 09:58:27 AM · #6
Your overall score is 5.2 and you got mostly 5's and 6's. Seems appropriate for this shot. I wouldn't worry about the 1's and 2's - you always receive those. Maybe those people were in a bad mood or didn't understand the challenge themselvees. Maybe they thought it had to be a team sport like the other challenge. Look at the overall score and you'll see it really wasn't too bad. (BTW I didn't vote.) It's a good action capture but I agree with the other comments: either crop closer to eliminate the boring background or show more of the environment like the top of the ramp to show some perspective. I think you could have increased the brightness on him - his face looks a little flat because of the lack of light on it. Keep trying! This is one spot where you should return when you might get better light, a more dynamic skater or better yet a crash. :-)
05/12/2010 10:02:13 AM · #7
You lost at least a point because the image lacks critical sharpness throughout; we're conditioned to want really crisp rendering on sports action shots.

R.
05/12/2010 10:08:31 AM · #8
This helps. As for the skater attire...I don't know this guy from Adam, he was just cruising around the place and was willing to skate over by us. I cropped this quite a bit from the original, but because he's on skates, he's never very far from the actual edge, thus there wasn't much separation between him and the edge while he was skating. (He had a couple good wipe-outs, too, lol.)

So, motion blur sucks, eh. There is a shot of a cyclist that shows tons of motion blur, but I'm wondinging if everyone required 100% STOP ACTION rather than the "capture action" the description gave, and some show of motion. Static shots then become nothing more than just a "position in time". I'll never figure this joint out, lol.
05/12/2010 10:09:15 AM · #9
Originally posted by bergiekat:


If you voted this down, please enlighten me. It's all good. If you gave me a 1, I'm ok with that, but I'd like to know what impression you had that caused the emotion to give this shot a 1. I'm ok with it all, just want to improve.

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Hey Bergie,

Since I was there with you I didn't vote, I did however, consider entering the challenge but decided to go with the Team Sports without players.

Here was my candidate

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While it is sharper due to a faster shutter speed probably, but IMO rotating it added something to the shot. Others may disagree. Some may be critical once the find out he really wasn't upside down, but there nothing against the rules here.
05/12/2010 10:12:09 AM · #10
Originally posted by bergiekat:

So, motion blur sucks, eh. There is a shot of a cyclist that shows tons of motion blur, but I'm wondinging if everyone required 100% STOP ACTION rather than the "capture action" the description gave, and some show of motion. Static shots then become nothing more than just a "position in time". I'll never figure this joint out, lol.


It's easier to figure out when you realize that if you're going to *have* blur, a lot is usually preferable to a little. Give us frozen instants or flowing expressions of motion: anything in between tends to read as sloppy technique. It's like, if you're photographing a cityscape or something, a little tilt looks accidental, but a lot of tilt looks planned; people may or may not like it, but at least they know it's intentional.

R.
05/12/2010 10:12:44 AM · #11
My initial thought on all the entries in non-traditional sports can be summarized by George Carlin's famous rules of sports....NSFW but seriously funny!

05/12/2010 10:20:29 AM · #12
Aw, Peter, that's just not fair, lol...now I have to wait until I get home to listen to this! :P
The anticipation is killing me - love Carlin!
05/12/2010 10:21:41 AM · #13
I voted it a 6, contrary to what has been stated here, I think the motion blur and panning actually helped this image, I would have liked a bit more leading space in front of the skater to keep him off center and a place to "go" in the image. It could also benefit from a bit more curves and saturation, not overly so but just a touch more.

Matt
05/12/2010 10:28:21 AM · #14
I'll throw mine in here for critique if that's OK with Bergie,

This was in the Team Sports Without Players challenge

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24 votes of 4 or less seems a bit harsh to me.

05/12/2010 10:29:12 AM · #15
Originally posted by MattO:

I voted it a 6, contrary to what has been stated here, I think the motion blur and panning actually helped this image, I would have liked a bit more leading space in front of the skater to keep him off center and a place to "go" in the image. It could also benefit from a bit more curves and saturation, not overly so but just a touch more.

Matt


I don't disagree with you, actually, at least not in principle. My observation had more to do with what usually scores better with DPC voters...

R.
05/12/2010 10:35:16 AM · #16
Originally posted by bergiekat:

So, motion blur sucks, eh. There is a shot of a cyclist that shows tons of motion blur, but I'm wondinging if everyone required 100% STOP ACTION rather than the "capture action" the description gave, and some show of motion. Static shots then become nothing more than just a "position in time". I'll never figure this joint out, lol.


No, motion blur doesn't suck. You seem to have misunderstood me. Motion blur is great when used properly. Panning with the subject to keep him in focus while producing motion blur in everything else is the key. It's a fine line to ride when the subject also has moving parts, whether it be rotating wheels on a bicycle or race car, or the flailing arms of a skater. It's difficult to get the shutter speed slow enough to blur everything else, especially the background, but keep the subject crisp and sharp.

edit to add: This is one of my favorite shots but it wouldn't do well here on DPC either because my subject isn't sharp enough. The motion blur achieved by panning with the rider is very effective in showing the action and what is going on, but the image would have been much, much better if I could have frozen the rider in the frame while blurring everything else. I simply wasn't prepared for him to make this move.
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Message edited by author 2010-05-12 10:40:44.
05/12/2010 10:55:55 AM · #17
I see what you mean. I froze him, but not ALL of him as he is wheeling his arm and moving his feet a bit in the shot. If I used a faster shutter spead, that would have helped, but wouldn't doing so then reduce the effect of the motion panning?

edited to add: I like that shot!

Message edited by author 2010-05-12 10:56:16.
05/12/2010 11:42:43 AM · #18
I am going to expand on my thoughts as to why the blur actually helps this image as shot.

Take away the blur of the shot and you have a tack sharp skater, a tack sharp or slightly out of focus subject, what else do you have? A sense of speed? IMHO no. Do you have a sense of the trick he is doing? IMHO no. Do you have a sense of height as if he were jumping or elevated from the ground? IMHO no. So you aren't left with much as this image is shot. So in essence the blur give you a sense of motion, speed and makes the image better.

Matt
05/12/2010 11:42:57 AM · #19
Yours: ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1205/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_878306.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1205/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_878306.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' Mine:' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1205/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_878097.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1205/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_878097.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Kat
Seeing yours and mine side by side, I see color balance and clarity are the big differences. Yours was shot at 6.3 & 1/160th and mine at 2.8 & 1/800. I think the clarity and detail that my image contain are what helped it score .5 higher than yours. Additionally, the colors in yours, by comparison, are a bit muddy, probably due to the motion/panning.

FYI, I sent him a copy of my entry and this one: ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/55000-59999/58691/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_878088.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/55000-59999/58691/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_878088.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

He was very appreciative.
05/12/2010 12:06:39 PM · #20
Originally posted by MattO:

I am going to expand on my thoughts as to why the blur actually helps this image as shot.

Take away the blur of the shot and you have a tack sharp skater, a tack sharp or slightly out of focus subject, what else do you have? A sense of speed? IMHO no. Do you have a sense of the trick he is doing? IMHO no. Do you have a sense of height as if he were jumping or elevated from the ground? IMHO no. So you aren't left with much as this image is shot. So in essence the blur give you a sense of motion, speed and makes the image better.

Matt


So, based on what you're saying, Kat's is a better shot than signal2noise's?

R.
05/12/2010 12:15:58 PM · #21
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by MattO:

I am going to expand on my thoughts as to why the blur actually helps this image as shot.

Take away the blur of the shot and you have a tack sharp skater, a tack sharp or slightly out of focus subject, what else do you have? A sense of speed? IMHO no. Do you have a sense of the trick he is doing? IMHO no. Do you have a sense of height as if he were jumping or elevated from the ground? IMHO no. So you aren't left with much as this image is shot. So in essence the blur give you a sense of motion, speed and makes the image better.

Matt


So, based on what you're saying, Kat's is a better shot than signal2noise's?

R.


Who said anything about comparing the two shots? I gave MY analysis of why the blur helped her image as presented nothing more nothing less.

I don't think Kat's image is better then signal2noise's shot, and I never said one way or the other. His shot actually works with stopped action because there is a sense of height that gives you an insight to the trick he is doing with the wider crop and some surroundings to give you that. I'm not sure why you are trying to put words in my mouth Bear.
05/12/2010 12:23:53 PM · #22
I'll admit to this, skater pictures bore the snot out of me. They are everywhere. I have several. Even technically good shots are tired. For me you really have to do something different with a skater pic to make me care in the slightest. That's where the image starts for me and then add that to the fact that it does lack critical sharpness throughout and I've written it off entirely. I don't recall what i gave it off the top of my head, but a 3 or 4 wouldn't surprise me.

Really it's not bad, it's just ho hum for me.
05/12/2010 12:24:48 PM · #23
Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by MattO:

I am going to expand on my thoughts as to why the blur actually helps this image as shot.

Take away the blur of the shot and you have a tack sharp skater, a tack sharp or slightly out of focus subject, what else do you have? A sense of speed? IMHO no. Do you have a sense of the trick he is doing? IMHO no. Do you have a sense of height as if he were jumping or elevated from the ground? IMHO no. So you aren't left with much as this image is shot. So in essence the blur give you a sense of motion, speed and makes the image better.

Matt


So, based on what you're saying, Kat's is a better shot than signal2noise's?

R.


Who said anything about comparing the two shots? I gave MY analysis of why the blur helped her image as presented nothing more nothing less.

I don't think Kat's image is better then signal2noise's shot, and I never said one way or the other. His shot actually works with stopped action because there is a sense of height that gives you an insight to the trick he is doing with the wider crop and some surroundings to give you that. I'm not sure why you are trying to put words in my mouth Bear.


Calm down, Matt, I wasn't doing that. I was *ASKING*, ok? It's not my field of expertise. Nobody's putting words into your mouth, I ASKED "based on what you're saying", wondering if that was a rule that could be applied, in your opinion. Sheesh...

R.
05/12/2010 01:25:32 PM · #24
Just because a rule applies to one photo doesn't mean it automatically applies to another photo. The only rule I apply to an image is does it work, what makes it work, if I did it different would it detract from it. I don't worry about DPC when I shoot or apply the rules I use for my photos or the ones I look at. If I did my editor would fire me for sending him eye candy instead of stuff that tell the story.

I appreciate noise for what it is, I take a little blur with a smile when I think it adds to the substance. In my photography the only rule is there are no rules. I never apply the same hard fast rules to anything, some of the best photos break all the rules, while others who conform to every rule sometimes are boring, or sometimes I just sit in amazement at them.

Sports have several "general guidelines" on what makes a good photo.

Ball, eyes, action, focus. But that doesn't mean you have to have all four or any to make a good sports photo IMHO.

Matt
05/12/2010 01:34:00 PM · #25
Originally posted by signal2noise:

Yours: ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1205/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_878306.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1205/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_878306.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' Mine:' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1205/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_878097.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1205/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_878097.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Kat
Seeing yours and mine side by side, I see color balance and clarity are the big differences. Yours was shot at 6.3 & 1/160th and mine at 2.8 & 1/800. I think the clarity and detail that my image contain are what helped it score .5 higher than yours. Additionally, the colors in yours, by comparison, are a bit muddy, probably due to the motion/panning.

FYI, I sent him a copy of my entry and this one: ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/55000-59999/58691/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_878088.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/55000-59999/58691/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_878088.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

He was very appreciative.


lol, I'll throw mine in the mix, minimal PP as wasn't entering him. I thought the 2 of you would enter him so didn't.

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