Not Meeting Challenge - DPChallenge Forums

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G DX VR

07/02/2002 06:38:31 PM · #1

It seems like those people who claim that a photo "doesn't meet the challenge" are vilified.

I'm one of those people -- in the current challenge, I counted at least a half dozen photos that either flat out didn't meet the challenge, or that tried to side-step the issue with their title. I gave them all ones even though some of them are great photos if looked at outside the restrictions of the challenge.

Am I frustrated when people do the same to me? Yes. But that only shows that I didn't do enough to portray my vision easily. I accept that. At times, I have actually gone so far as to hope that people don't get it and have reveled in a low score.

But I don't get the vilification. This site is about the challenge. It's part of the title -- DP Challenge. It's as much a rule as "no spot editing." Quoting from the rules: "Your submission should follow the criteria for the challenge topic." It goes on to say we can submit it for DQ, if we so choose. I'll admit, maybe I should be doing that instead of handing out the ones.

In the past I wasn't so mean -- but then I saw a number of photos do very well even though they clearly didn't meet the challenge and the artists who took them admitted as much. If anything, it seems to me that these are the people who should be vilified. Or, since that seems too strong a word, discouraged from doing it again in the future.

I had what I thought were some beautiful photos from Yellowstone. I'd taken them during the week of the "City Life" challenge. If I'd wanted to, I could have come up with some clever idea about the colonies of bacteria that live in the run-off from the various geysers and hot springs and how they represent an alternative city life. It wasn't even a decision to be made, however. Instead of submitting, I put them online elsewhere and asked for feedback from people here. I suggest others do the same.

Don't get me wrong, I have spent literally more time on a single photo than I have on all the rest in a challenge combined when I didn't get how it fit a challenge -- all in an attempt to understand how it fit. In some challenges, like this one, it's a lot easier. Either something is transparent in the picture, or it isn't -- and believe me, I'm stretching those boundaries with my own picture so I'm willing to give a lot of leeway. I've already had one person apologize for not getting the transparent aspect of my photo. Hurray to that person for "standing up" to me. I choose to disagree, but I also know I have pushed the definition, so I understand and accept the comment.

OK, enough verbosity. Had to get that off my chest. This is a rant -- please know that. I'd love a discussion, but I'm also prolly not gonna have access until Sunday, so if I don't respond, it's not because you said something that hurt my feelings. :-)

Have a great 4th everybody in the States -- have a great week everyone else. :-D

tjuneau13

Fujifilm FinePix S602Z

07/02/2002 06:57:59 PM · #2

I have a related question regarding not meeting the challenge. There are a couple photos this week that I am not sure if the rules were followed or not. But, having only novice experience here I am not sure. For those of you that know better - do you submit the photo for DQ if you question it? After the shadow DQ I am just wondering how many photos are submitted for questioning during the voting week.

I can't wait to read the description on the ones I am wondering about to see how they were done - if they have met the rules I am envious!

Tina

Alecia

Canon EOS-10D

07/02/2002 06:59:48 PM · #3

ooops, never mind!

* This message has been edited by the author on 7/2/2002 7:03:15 PM.

myqyl

Nikon D3100

07/02/2002 07:07:20 PM · #4

I agree that the 'challenge' is what makes this site unique and is why I, for one, am here. I hope I've never sounded like I vilified the "doesn't meet the challenge" crowd, but I do feel that some folks take the challenge too literally. I think the challenge needs to be open to artistic interputation. Personally, I grade each photo on it's merits, then add or subtract 1 to 3 points for "meeting the challenge".

Just cause I don't see the challenge in a shot doesn't mean it's not there. So I can't justify just giving a 1.

But that's me :)

pnicholls

Sigma 24-135mm f/2.8-4.5 Aspherical IF for Canon

07/02/2002 07:19:43 PM · #5

I have had equal numbers this week tell me that they see no transparency and those that tell me they like the way that I used transparency. Go figure :-) Transparency or not is definitely in the eyes of the beholder!

Zeissman

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

07/02/2002 07:22:55 PM · #6

I guess it is all a matter of degrees. Most of the photos in City Life had city or life, but few really had both. But I do not thought they all made an attempt. As long as they had one element, I did not knock them two hard.

This week, there is one of a bird flying over water that I think missed the point. But giving six 1's? A one is "very bad". I would think there should not be more than 2-3 of those a week.

Swashbuckler

Sony DSC-F717

07/02/2002 07:34:25 PM · #7

I just finished viewing several shots that either had no evidence that the challenge was being attempted. In those cases, I have said it straight up. I don't see it and grade it lower, but I limit my ones HEAVILY (almost never used). In other cases, if the challenge is being artistically "pushed", I try my best to put myself in the their shoes, but I still attempt to point out to that person that they are taking a risk of being missed.
I agree with Patella, up to a point. IMO, if your shot is on the lower end of challenge clarity, I would ask you to please ask for an ADMIN NOTE added to your shot. Some challenges are truly open to interpretation. I fail to see ANY interpretation of take a shot of anything semi-transparent.
Please don't vilify Patella. I would hope we would raise our expectations, not pass the buck. I am a very soft grader. Please don't push me into siding with Patella entirely. I hate giving out 1s.
Swash

moondoggie

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

07/02/2002 08:05:10 PM · #8

Originally posted by pnicholls:
I have had equal numbers this week tell me that they see no transparency and those that tell me they like the way that I used transparency. Go figure :-) Transparency or not is definitely in the eyes of the beholder!

Transparency can sometimes be difficult to see...

07/02/2002 08:13:48 PM · #9

Originally posted by Zeissman:
I guess it is all a matter of degrees. Most of the photos in City Life had city or life, but few really had both. But I do not thought they all made an attempt. As long as they had one element, I did not knock them two hard.

This week, there is one of a bird flying over water that I think missed the point. But giving six 1's? A one is "very bad". I would think there should not be more than 2-3 of those a week.

This is the philosophy that I choose to use when voting on photos that I don't think meet the challenge or didn't meet it to my own expectations. I don't give one votes very often at all. My average vote cast reflects that very well. If I determine that a photo has not met the challenge, a 5 is the max score I will give on it, and it takes lots of technical excellence to get a 5.

queen 91

Kodak DC280

07/02/2002 08:23:14 PM · #10

interpretation will always be as infinite as grains of sand on the beach. not everyone will agree or get someone else's point of view. this is an artistic venue and it's amazing how the various submission reflect the challenge. glasses and cups were suggested in the transparency description, but certainly not limited to. a few submissions show the atomsphere, water or oxygen as their transparency. does that make it wrong or just different?

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

07/02/2002 08:39:03 PM · #11

Originally posted by queen 91:
interpretation will always be as infinite as grains of sand on the beach. not everyone will agree or get someone else's point of view. this is an artistic venue and it's amazing how the various submission reflect the challenge. glasses and cups were suggested in the transparency description, but certainly not limited to. a few submissions show the atomsphere, water or oxygen as their transparency. does that make it wrong or just different?

It does NOT make it wrong. The issue is that each voter has his or her own interpretation of what the challenge results should look like. Each voter also has some amount of leeway in that interpretation. I always have my own ideas on the challenge, but I am usually enlightened to some new ideas each week as well. If I see an idea that I can interpret, I have no problem with it.

One of the things I look for in photos, as well as meeting the challenge, is EFFORT. If I had to break my scoring down into categories, I would say that the following items are part of the scores that I give:

Meeting the Challenge
Image Quality
Photographer Effort
Visual Impact

Meeting the Challenge means that the photo falls into my idea of the challenge or is able to enlighten me on a new idea that I didn't have already.

Image quality is normal. I look for decent quality and I do make concessions if I think the camera uses was a lower end camera. Image quality also covers the framing, composition, depth of field, focus, and all other aspects of photogrpahic technique.

Photographer effort scores points with me. If I believe that the photographer made a serious effort to make a photograph, points are scored. This is not to say that a great image can't be had without effort.

Visual Impact means that the photo makes me want to look at it for a while. If the photo makes me think and if I find myself looking at the details, and saying WOW, you definitely have a good photo.

:)

David Ey

Nikon D80

07/02/2002 09:03:53 PM · #12

Originally posted by Moondoggie:
[[/i]

Transparency can sometimes be difficult to see...
[/i]

Ha Ha :}

mci

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

07/02/2002 09:11:08 PM · #13

I think the issue shouldn''t be whether a shot "meets" the current challenge, but whether it was taken specifically FOR the current challenge. When you see a shot like the sunset which uses the "atmosphere" for its transparency, you have to wonder whether this was a shot that the person took during the week and then decided to "bend" for the challenge, or if the person actually thought "hey, the atmosphere is transparent and can cause some wacky color effects, so i''ll take a picture of a sunset."

The first scenerio, in my opinion, obviously falls short of the intent of the site and those photos should be crucified. But how are we, as a voter, to know what the photographer was thinking? I usually give the benefit of the doubt.

However, this was also the reason I voted very low on last weeks picture of a newborn baby. I had no problem with the shot itself, and no problem with the subject, but I really don''t think the photographer said "hey, a newborn baby represents city life to me, i''ll go down to the hospital and take a picture." it was obviously an occasion where he happened to get this picture during the week and submitted it for the hell of it. I don''t think that goes along with the nature of the site.

Just some thoughts.

- mike

* This message has been edited by the author on 7/2/2002 9:11:12 PM.

Digipixer

Canon Power Shot SX10 IS

07/02/2002 10:08:32 PM · #14

...THIS IS TRANSPARENT.......THIS IS NOT TRANSPARENT.....

Hope this clears it up....HAR HAR HAR .

Digipixer

Canon Power Shot SX10 IS

07/02/2002 10:08:35 PM · #15

* This message has been edited by the author on 7/2/2002 10:08:00 PM.

hokie

Nikon D2X

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G IF-ED

07/02/2002 10:46:38 PM · #16

All these folks saying what they look for..what they don't look for..I say BULLSHIT!

I think people vote for what they like and they justify their vote however they can and all this talk about technical stuff is blowing smoke.

I can choose any person here...go back to their votes and comments on photos and prove my point. Personally, I am glad people vote for what they like..I do it. But all this technical mumbo jumbo about titles and challenges met or not met or whatever. I think is BS to a large degree.

I wanted to test this idea this week. Submitted an abstract that was has ..word for word..the challenge absolutely covered. It's Semi-transparent, It distorts light into interesting colors, it is technically difficult and creative...and it is getting about mid 5's.

I think people don't get into abstracts. I saw the comments last week and said.."Hmmm...I bet their dislike for abstracts will control their voting." I believe I am right.

So I say BS to all these technical vote discussions. You guys vote for your likes and dislikes like all us other "Artsy, Fartsy People" :-P

Digipixer

Canon Power Shot SX10 IS

07/02/2002 10:52:32 PM · #17

Well said HOKIE!!!!!

Zeissman

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

07/02/2002 11:31:30 PM · #18

Then do it!

Take JMSETZLER
Karen Bryan
And me, and show some kind of pattern to our votes.

Originally posted by hokie:
.

I can choose any person here...go back to their votes and comments on photos and prove my point.

Zeissman

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

07/03/2002 11:17:16 AM · #19

Well? I am curious to see if you can find a pattern.

magnetic9999

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

07/03/2002 11:28:29 AM · #20

maybe he really can, but i didnt think he meant it literally as much as using the example to underscore his conviction about the validity of his hypothesis. : ) > .. Still, if he can, hats off to him : )

MrsKro

07/03/2002 11:31:43 AM · #21

hmm...I don't get it...I vote for what I like..and I'm not technical enough to give any remarks about how I'd like to have seen it done. I've had comments before that go way over my head with people's ideas about what I should have done and what equipment I should use and I read them....take them in....and then go on. I like what I like. Same goes when I'm voting.... but I don't think you can make a blanket statement about people liking or disliking abstract art. It's just like any other art....some will like it...some will not. Isn't it?
I will say that I have voted down good photos in the past and now because I don't feel they meet the challenge. I kind of take this as a "class" and if you don't meet the criteria for the challenge then you will not do as well. Still doesn't mean the photo is bad...it just means you didn't follow directions. Not my rules....they are the "instructor's" rules...i.e. Drew and Langdon. And yes I know...everyone has their own concept of how the photo meets the challenge or doesn't. I take that into account and really look. But bottom line..it's my opinion....and no one is paying me to agree with someone else's idea of what they think meets the challenge. You either see it or you don't.
There are sites that let you post photos of whatever you want. I like this site because it makes you think.... about a specific thing.
I'm kinda rambling here....just bored I guess....by the way..Happy 4th to everyone. :)

Karen

07/03/2002 11:38:47 AM · #22

I don't know which photo is yours, but based on your past work, I would be willing to bet two things. 1 - I gave it a score higher than the average you received from the collective vote. 2 - That I gave it a 7 or better. Your photos have always scored rather well with me.

I vote higher on average than a lot of photographers and voters here do. My average vote cast is almost 2 full points higher than yours.. what are you complaining about? :))

Originally posted by hokie:
All these folks saying what they look for..what they don't look for..I say BULLSHIT!

I think people vote for what they like and they justify their vote however they can and all this talk about technical stuff is blowing smoke.

I can choose any person here...go back to their votes and comments on photos and prove my point. Personally, I am glad people vote for what they like..I do it. But all this technical mumbo jumbo about titles and challenges met or not met or whatever. I think is BS to a large degree.

I wanted to test this idea this week. Submitted an abstract that was has ..word for word..the challenge absolutely covered. It's Semi-transparent, It distorts light into interesting colors, it is technically difficult and creative...and it is getting about mid 5's.

I think people don't get into abstracts. I saw the comments last week and said.."Hmmm...I bet their dislike for abstracts will control their voting." I believe I am right.

So I say BS to all these technical vote discussions. You guys vote for your likes and dislikes like all us other "Artsy, Fartsy People" :-P

shortredneck

Olympus C-3000Z

07/03/2002 12:20:52 PM · #23

I tend to agree with Hokie on this one. I believe the average voter is going to vote down anything he or she is not interested in. We get people complaining about the number of kittens, babies, flowers, sunsets, etc. Then we get those complaining that kittens, babies, flowers, sunsets, etc. will always get the highest votes. My feeling is that no one is totally wrong or right on this. It is always a matter of opinion.

07/03/2002 12:24:28 PM · #24

Originally posted by shortredneck:
I tend to agree with Hokie on this one. I believe the average voter is going to vote down anything he or she is not interested in. We get people complaining about the number of kittens, babies, flowers, sunsets, etc. Then we get those complaining that kittens, babies, flowers, sunsets, etc. will always get the highest votes. My feeling is that no one is totally wrong or right on this. It is always a matter of opinion.

There's nothing wrong with that. if you don't like the subject of the photo, it's harder to get excited about giving it a high score... Subjectivity is always an element of judging art...

magnetic9999