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07/08/2005 11:29:22 AM · #1 |
I've been thinking about a way to investigate the assertion that DPC is still "working normally" despite the huge number of entries in challenges.
The challenge history shows us the average number of votes per photo. But something I'd like to know, but can't figure out from the data available (and the means of looking at the data): What does the distribution of vote counts look like? In other words, what's the min votes a photo gets in a challenge, versus the max? What's the Standard Deviation? Is there a big gap between the most voted photo and the least voted photo? And how is this correlated with score?
Browsing across the average number of votes in a challenge, I see something interesting. It looks, informally skimming the most recent challenges, like challenges below 300 or so entries often get more than the number of entries as the average number of votes. As the number of entries goes up, there are fewer votes than entries on the average in those challenges. Perhaps someone has time to put these numbers in a spreadsheet and do some real analyses?
Here's my brief attempt to look at this. This is the average number of votes per challenge minus the number of entries, plotted against the number of entries. The Y axis is postive whenever the average number of votes per entry exceeds the total number of entries. The number of votes seems to be positive most of the time (more votes on average than entries), and it seems pretty flat for most of the graph, meaning that the number of votes is "increasing" when there are more images to meet the number of images. However, somewhere around 350 or so entries, it starts to FALL big time. Perhaps this is just a bad measure. But if it's meaningful, it seems to suggest that at 350 entries or more, the challenges are simply overwhelming, and on average, people are voting a significantly smaller percentage of the total images than they would otherwise do.
Lastly, I wonder if there's some information to be gathered in the profiles. How many users have received many more votes than they've given? I wonder what statistics for these looks like. Can someone with access to the database compile them?
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07/08/2005 11:46:09 AM · #2 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Lastly, I wonder if there's some information to be gathered in the profiles. How many users have received many more votes than they've given? I wonder what statistics for these looks like. Can someone with access to the database compile them? |
mine:
Votes Cast: 23031
Votes Received: 35056
To me, that is a significant difference. I think with a few entries (maybe less than 10), there might be some knowledge to be gained from looking at this stat. However, with more entries (I have 175), I don't know that it is possible to have more votes cast, or even come close.
The other stuff is interesting, adn I think may be useful in knowing (especially the 350). |
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07/08/2005 11:47:09 AM · #3 |
Neil,
I think there is actually a realtively simple explanation for this. If the total voter pool is something like 700, and each voter votes (on average) for half the photos, then each photo will receive an average of 350 votes. It seems like the largest average votes per photo is in that range. The size of the voter pool is very likely less than 1000 voters for a given challenge.
I have not done any statistics myself, but there might be a way to ue public statistics to refine this a little. I'll take a look at it, see what I come up with.
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07/08/2005 11:54:10 AM · #4 |
For me:
Challenges Entered: 15
Votes Cast: 4684
Avg Vote Cast: 5.3149
Votes Received: 3733
Avg Vote Received: 4.9148
But, I do not enter every challenge, neither I have the time to vote on every one. But, I generally vote on more challenges than I enter. Sometimes 100%, and sometimes barely 20%. Most of the time I am around voting on 75% of the entries.
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07/08/2005 12:00:58 PM · #5 |
Votes Cast: 16557
Votes Received: 23089
(but did enter 75 challenges in 1st year too)
If I can't vote on all images, I vote on none of them to be fair to all.
As the challenges get into the 400+ range, it is getting harder & harder to be an active voter.
Leading lines was a decent size, and even managed about 25% comments too.
Just my 0.02¢
Message edited by author 2005-07-08 12:02:41. |
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07/08/2005 12:19:29 PM · #6 |
Here's my stat:
Challenges Entered: 28
Votes Cast: 12414
Votes Received: 7559
Everytime I enter a challenge, I vote on 100% of the photos. Even if I don't enter, I'm trying to vote on all of them, it does not happen all the time but I try hard to do it. |
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07/08/2005 12:19:48 PM · #7 |
Neil you mean something like this. This was taken by calculating the Challenge history database that is available to everyone. I pooled all challenges into these categories:
<100
101-200
201-300
301-400
401-500
500 +
Added each category together to come up with an average (Entries vs. Votes). It is interesting that the votes seem tapper off around 320. So as the number of entries grow the number of votes grow at a much lower rate showing less voting %.
Message edited by author 2005-07-08 12:20:03.
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07/08/2005 12:29:49 PM · #8 |
Holy cow. That is awesome that you are into this to this degree. Kudos for voicing this thought. I would have to say that you are correct -if it's going to take a good 5 hours to score images, some may just avoid it altogether. I think the amount of time it takes for me personally to accurately analyze and score a photo depends on the photo itself. The worse the photo, the more time it generally takes. As with most people (I assume), I can tell when I see a "10" almost immediately. i have to admit The 7-10 category is what I find myself somtimes skimming for when I only have limitted time. This seems to be more enjoyable and i would bet that most people (consciously or not) find more enjoyment looking at images they like rather than problem images. Some may say this is unfair - but i feel that a "5" or below is so common on unpopular images that I avoid scoring those when I have little time. When I do have the time, I try to add a comment to explain the lower score. Hopefully I don't sound like a jerk, I'm just being honest :]
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07/08/2005 12:38:41 PM · #9 |
I could be reading your data incorrectly, but it seems to me one thing to take away from this is voters get tired of voting at around the 300 mark?
FWIW, my own stats indicate I give 3X more votes than I receive. This could simply indicate that my photos aren't interesting enough to vote on ;-)
Message edited by author 2005-07-08 12:39:09. |
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07/08/2005 12:43:45 PM · #10 |
| So what both of these graphs are stating is people don't vote. Well just get out there and vote.....I did...............I am also with Brad if I can't vote on them all I don't vote.....I feel I should give everyone the same amount of attention. |
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07/08/2005 12:49:24 PM · #11 |
| I thiink in the Member challenges there are always more votes than in the Open challenges. In the open challenges I don't think it is because fewer people are voting per se, just not as many registered users vote as members. Just a thought. But it seems on open challenges a lot of the DQ's come from people not submitting proof when asked which tells me they are not paying attention. |
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07/08/2005 12:53:00 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by SDW65:
. This was taken by calculating the Challenge history database that is available to everyone. |
Where/how is this available? I would like to work some numbers.
Challenges Entered: 13
Votes Cast: 4648
Avg Vote Cast: 5.7833
Votes Received: 3396
Avg Vote Received: 4.8360
I haven't entered every challenge - missed one or two - but I have voted on every challenge and 100%. I got slammed for having an opinion on this in another thread, but I just don't see how more entries makes it more difficult to vote. It may take longer and nothing says you have to do it all at once or even 100% - just 20%, but some of the people I see complaining about this spend a lot of time in the forums. Why not spend it voting? And no - I don't mean handcuffed to the voting button. But in another recent thread the person had to have spent at least 10 minutes typing their initial post, then another hour or so just that night reading and responding to posts. So I find that complaint invalid - the time is there - just not spent voting. And yes, I got slammed for saying it was lazy to not vote - I am sorry - I think it is. Especially if you are going to complain about not having the time, but lots of time is spent in the forums. The name of the site is DPChallenge, NOT DPChatForums.
Lets see how many nasty PM's I get this time.
Message edited by author 2005-07-08 13:04:19. |
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07/08/2005 12:55:27 PM · #13 |
there's nothing unfair about voting on 20% as long the 20% is random. Hunting out "good thumbnails" is unfair.
Why do you feel as though a 500 entry challenge has to have 500 votes on each image? Isn't 320 enough? My score barely changes after only 100 votes. |
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07/08/2005 01:06:24 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Alienyst:
The name of the site is DPChallenge, NOT DPChatForums. |
Hmm.... could that be a spin off site? Maybe call it DCChallenge: Digital Chat Challenge? The best arguments for/against a topic wins the best placement on the ranking? Maybe I should be out drinking if I'm thinking of random stuff like this? |
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07/08/2005 01:09:35 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by hopper:
Why do you feel as though a 500 entry challenge has to have 500 votes on each image? |
I didn't say that! |
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07/08/2005 01:11:13 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by rex:
Originally posted by hopper:
Why do you feel as though a 500 entry challenge has to have 500 votes on each image? |
I didn't say that! |
No, you didn't say that however it could be implied based on your statement of how you approach voting, all or none.
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07/08/2005 01:14:14 PM · #17 |
For what it's worth, I've entered virtually every challenge since I joined and these are my stats:
Challenges Entered: 56
Votes Cast: 15557
Votes Received: 14728
So entering a lot of challenges does not preclude a positive ratio.
R.
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07/08/2005 01:15:55 PM · #18 |
i'm not singling anyone out ... it was a general question
Originally posted by rex:
Originally posted by hopper:
Why do you feel as though a 500 entry challenge has to have 500 votes on each image? |
I didn't say that! |
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07/08/2005 01:22:42 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by Alienyst:
Originally posted by SDW65:
. This was taken by calculating the Challenge history database that is available to everyone. |
Where/how is this available? I would like to work some numbers.
Challenges Entered: 13
Votes Cast: 4648
Avg Vote Cast: 5.7833
Votes Received: 3396
Avg Vote Received: 4.8360
I haven't entered every challenge - missed one or two - but I have voted on every challenge and 100%. I got slammed for having an opinion on this in another thread, but I just don't see how more entries makes it more difficult to vote. It may take longer and nothing says you have to do it all at once or even 100% - just 20%, but some of the people I see complaining about this spend a lot of time in the forums. Why not spend it voting? And no - I don't mean handcuffed to the voting button. But in another recent thread the person had to have spent at least 10 minutes typing their initial post, then another hour or so just that night reading and responding to posts. So I find that complaint invalid - the time is there - just not spent voting. And yes, I got slammed for saying it was lazy to not vote - I am sorry - I think it is. Especially if you are going to complain about not having the time, but lots of time is spent in the forums. The name of the site is DPChallenge, NOT DPChatForums.
Lets see how many nasty PM's I get this time. |
It is found under Challenges > Challenge History.
Copy and paste into Excel and you can sort all kind of ways by entries, votes, comments, date, scores, etc.
Originally posted by hopper:
there's nothing unfair about voting on 20% as long the 20% is random. Hunting out "good thumbnails" is unfair.
Why do you feel as though a 500 entry challenge has to have 500 votes on each image? Isn't 320 enough? My score barely changes after only 100 votes. |
You are correct but some would like to vote on every entry. And there is a bit of a skew when only voting on 20%. That's because not all people vote the same. But I don't think it would effect the score enough to make an impact. I don't mind the 20% rule as long as people are not able to "cherry-pick", get rid of the thumbnails until after voting and the >> on the main voting page.
Message edited by author 2005-07-08 13:28:19.
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07/08/2005 01:29:39 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by hopper:
i'm not singling anyone out ... it was a general question
Originally posted by rex:
Originally posted by hopper:
Why do you feel as though a 500 entry challenge has to have 500 votes on each image? |
I didn't say that! |
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OK....I don't feel it is unfair....I do agree with you on the thumbpicking....my thing is though I want to see every entry when I do vote.....I guess it is the fear of only voting 20% and missing the good ones. And lets be truthful there is always a handful of shots that people enter and we ask why did they enter this? It is my opinion that the thumbs should not be visible until you vote on them. This will stop "thumpicking"
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07/08/2005 01:30:56 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by rex:
Originally posted by hopper:
Why do you feel as though a 500 entry challenge has to have 500 votes on each image? |
I didn't say that! |
No, you didn't say that however it could be implied based on your statement of how you approach voting, all or none. |
i don't see how that could be implied? Sorry.
Message edited by author 2005-07-08 13:31:12. |
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07/08/2005 01:33:41 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by rex:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by rex:
Originally posted by hopper:
Why do you feel as though a 500 entry challenge has to have 500 votes on each image? |
I didn't say that! |
No, you didn't say that however it could be implied based on your statement of how you approach voting, all or none. |
i don't see how that could be implied? Sorry. |
You stated that you vote on all or none at all. Yes it's your way of doing things but yes, some will take that as saying that everyone should vote that way. It's all that writing between the lines that everyone gets hung up on. ;o)
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07/08/2005 01:34:01 PM · #23 |
I will qoute what I said in another thread. Just my opinion and many may not agree. Doesn't make me right and you wrong or vice versa.
All I̢۪m saying is that the site is growing which is a good thing. But like cities, as they grow they must accommodate for the congestion. Sometimes it takes making a two-lane road and four-lane road. Sometimes it means creating more roads. And I think DPC is at that point right now. I̢۪m not saying the site needs an overhaul or even big changes. I just believe that the administrators need to be looking at this issue now for future improvements.
I believe too many entries can do more harm than good. Below are a few examples I believe to be true.
1. To many entries gives voters less time to look over a photograph as good as they should because of time issues before voting.
2. Voting on a percentage of the challenges could obscure the results. We have voters that vote in different ways. Some vote 1-5, 5-10, 1-10, and 3-7. For a percentage to be an accurate way of voting I believe everyone would have to vote on the same scale. How would you like the 1-5 voter randomly getting your picture?
3. I believe that comments are important during a challenge to help show the photographer ways of improving. Spending more time voting you have to give up something, be it commenting or forum posting. Don̢۪t say that forum posting is not a vital part of this site because it is.
4. When you have to look through 500 entries or more your artistic judgment becomes numb. It̢۪s like eating your favorite food for a week. Say you love pasta and had it for dinner everyday for a week prepared by a different cook each day. Even though you love the dish as the week goes on you will not find that dish as good as it was the first or second day. And the same can be said about voting. As you go though that many photographs during the week it takes more of a pop or wow factor to vote the way you did at the beginning.
These are just some of my opinions and may not be true to everyone. I like DPC and do my part as well as most everyone here does. I believe possible issues should be addressed before they become problems.
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07/08/2005 01:36:28 PM · #24 |
Wrong quote:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by rex:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by rex:
Originally posted by hopper:
Why do you feel as though a 500 entry challenge has to have 500 votes on each image? |
I didn't say that! |
No, you didn't say that however it could be implied based on your statement of how you approach voting, all or none. |
i don't see how that could be implied? Sorry. |
You stated that you vote on all or none at all. Yes it's your way of doing things but yes, some will take that as saying that everyone should vote that way. It's all that writing between the lines that everyone gets hung up on. ;o) |
You are right......maybe I need a disclaimer at the beginning of all my post. ;-)
Edit: How I clicked the wrong quote button I will never figure out.
Message edited by author 2005-07-08 13:37:45. |
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07/08/2005 01:41:03 PM · #25 |
It is never fair to compare votes cast with votes received.
In any challenge you vote on, the most votes you can possibly cast (legally) is equal to the number of entries, i.e. less than 600 or so.
For a challenge you enter, the maximum number of votes you could receive is equal to the number of registered members, or about 20,000.
The rules only require you to vote on 20% of the entries. I'm starting to get uncomfortable; that there's an atmosphere and attitude developing that people who vote on every entry are somehow considered "better" members than those who vote only a random fraction, and the site should be changed to accomodate their desires with greater convenience. Perhaps it is this implication of superiority and self-righteousness coming through which has been tainting this whole discussion ...
Statistics, particularly incomplete ones, don't impress me that much; it's too easy to "prove" contradictory conclusions from the same data.
Message edited by author 2005-07-08 13:42:10. |
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