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11/19/2005 12:36:03 AM · #76 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by keegbow:
... Compared to the vote range 1 - 10, as stated before only a handful of images in each challenge will score over seven. |
What do you expect? Do you think that there should be an image that everybody thinks is super and rates a 9-10 in every challenge? That's not going to happen when we have such a large and diverse group of voters.
I think the voters behave in a very normal and consistent way. I don't see why you think they vote "so low". Lower than what? What are you using to compare our voters performance with to make that judgement? |
I expect more images to finish above 7.
I base my judgement on the number of images that finish above 7 compared with the number of images that finish below 4. |
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11/19/2005 02:24:42 AM · #77 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
I expect more images to finish above 7.
I base my judgement on the number of images that finish above 7 compared with the number of images that finish below 4. |
That comparison is only valid with 5.5 considered the middle ΓΆ€“ you will see in the challenge history the average for each challenge is usually lower than 5.5 ΓΆ€“ which is to be expected from a bunch of enthusiasts, most of whom photograph as a hobby only.
David
Message edited by author 2005-11-19 02:26:13.
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11/19/2005 04:15:42 AM · #78 |
Originally posted by Britannica:
Originally posted by keegbow:
I expect more images to finish above 7.
I base my judgement on the number of images that finish above 7 compared with the number of images that finish below 4. |
That comparison is only valid with 5.5 considered the middle ΓΆ€“ you will see in the challenge history the average for each challenge is usually lower than 5.5 ΓΆ€“ which is to be expected from a bunch of enthusiasts, most of whom photograph as a hobby only.
David |
Ok if I don't consider 5.5 as the middle what should I consider is the middle ? I also believe that the middle is quite different between member and open challenges.
It would be interesting to see a survey on the background of members as far as do they enter other competitions ? do they belong to camera clubs? are they professional or semi professional or a hobbyist? just on that point I'm sure many enthusiasts or hobbyist are amongst the best photographers on this site.
The reason for my original post is to open up discussion and for a self anaylsis of how we vote as individuals and already we have some very interesting admissions.
Message edited by author 2005-11-19 04:32:17. |
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11/19/2005 04:49:35 AM · #79 |
Originally posted by faidoi:
Some people don't give out "10's" unless it's absolutely perfect. Some might not even issue "10's". |
Quit talkin' about me behind my back! ;-) I ain't seen a perfect photo yet, but may give out my first 10 in the triptych challenge... |
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11/19/2005 05:13:02 AM · #80 |
The reason it is easy for me to score what I think a photo deserves even if I have a submission in the same challenge, is that I don't compete with anyone in the challenge. My goal in each challenge is to raise my average score. Right now my average score is 5.3557. I have one submission at 5.6 and one at 5.2 now, so I'm happy. After these challenges end my average will have raised a bit. Thus, I achieve my goal regardless of who ribbons.
Once I get my average score in the 6 range, watch out, cuz I'm competing! :) That will be.. hmmm sometime this century... I hope.
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11/19/2005 05:46:14 AM · #81 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
Ok if I don't consider 5.5 as the middle what should I consider is the middle ? I also believe that the middle is quite different between member and open challenges. ... |
I would say the middle would be different for each challenge.
an interesting pair of statistics that have relevance to this topic are the 'Average Score' and 'Midrange Score' found on the Challenge history page. The Average score is the sum of the scores of all the entries divided by the number of entries. The Midrange score is the score of the entry that falls in the middle of the pack -- that is, half of the entries scored higher and half scored lower. By comparing these two numbers for each challenge we learn which challenges were high scorers and which were low scorers. Specifically, the challenges with a Midrange score higher than the Average score had more entries with above average scores, while the challenges with the Midrange score lower than the Average had more entries with below average scores. A quick look at the past couple dozen challenges shows it to be a fairly even split between the high scoring challenges and the low scoring ones. I didn't do the leg-work for the entire history of the site, so I won't speculate on that.
---
As far as a voter comparing the image to their own -- so what? It is just as valid a comparison as any other.
I've said in other threads that in order for a voter to rate an image and place it on a scale from good to bad -- the voter must first define what a make a good or bad photo, no matter how nebulously the definition is. The image must be compared to something, and this site does not define what that something is -- that definition is left completely for the voter to do.
I don't see any difference between a voter comparing the image to their own entry, or some pristine example of imagery obtainable only be the gods. Some that vote no doubt compare the images against thier own entry, others against the entry they wish they had entered, and still others against the previous random image in the voting process or even all other images with a similar take on the challenge or a similar subject.
I just don't see that it matters how any one individual chooses to vote -- the voting population is large enough any voting scheme will be balanced by some other scheme or set of schemes used by others. The important thing is that they vote -- not that they vote in a way others are comfortable with them doing so.
David
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11/19/2005 06:42:00 AM · #82 |
Originally posted by Britannica:
Originally posted by keegbow:
Ok if I don't consider 5.5 as the middle what should I consider is the middle ? I also believe that the middle is quite different between member and open challenges. ... |
I would say the middle would be different for each challenge.
As far as a voter comparing the image to their own -- so what? It is just as valid a comparison as any other.
I've said in other threads that in order for a voter to rate an image and place it on a scale from good to bad -- the voter must first define what a make a good or bad photo, no matter how nebulously the definition is. The image must be compared to something, and this site does not define what that something is -- that definition is left completely for the voter to do.
I don't see any difference between a voter comparing the image to their own entry, or some pristine example of imagery obtainable only be the gods. Some that vote no doubt compare the images against thier own entry, others against the entry they wish they had entered, and still others against the previous random image in the voting process or even all other images with a similar take on the challenge or a similar subject.
David |
I agree the middle will be different on each challenge but still the number of images that score above 7 compared to the number of images that score below 4 is of concrn especially when compare open to member challenges.
You stated comparing images to your own "it is just as valid a comparison as any other" I have never mentioned this before so I'm not sure who this is directed at but since you have brought it up, I can see this method as having a domino effect by comparing your own shot in which you have a emotional attachment to and a vested interest in, you will be slanted in how you see other images as has been mentioned by other people in this thread. The domino effect comes in to play when we as a group rate our own pictures higher based on our own attachment to that image. We then start to rate other images lower with the only outcome to this being an lowering of score for all.
I'm not looking for "the answer" just discussion and I'm certainly no math's wizz but I still believe the site as a whole rates images lower then they should and the only true test would to take a random selection of images from the site and have independant people rate this images in a 1 - 10 fashion. |
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11/19/2005 06:50:45 AM · #83 |
For discussion purposes only.
Should both 1 and 10 be used by every voter in every challenge? That will have the effect of sorting out the entries in one way but could mean excellent pics getting a very low score. Scores between challenges would be meaningless.
Would you prefer that all voters try to determine the score relative to a standard - as most tend to do now - will give scores ranging from 4 to 7 with little chance of being outside of these points by the nature of different people with different views. A 6 average on this scale is exceptionally good, you can still sort people into brilliant, good, mediocre etc., just their scores will be closer together.
Human nature means that a middle of the pack shot gets a 5 so pushing the average from the theoretical 5.5 down by a half. The knock on effect causes more lower scores than expected. I suspect that the actual averages for most challenges are somewhere between 5 and 5.5 though.
Message edited by author 2005-11-19 06:56:20. |
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11/19/2005 07:09:57 AM · #84 |
Originally posted by Britannica:
... I don't see any difference between a voter comparing the image to their own entry, or some pristine example of imagery obtainable only be the gods. Some that vote no doubt compare the images against thier own entry, others against the entry they wish they had entered, and still others against the previous random image in the voting process or even all other images with a similar take on the challenge or a similar subject. ... |
This excerpt from David's last posting is a good example of the diversity of possible voting methods.
I think this whole concept of voting scales, what number range should everyone use, etc... is a mute point and can be discussed indefinitely without group concurrence.
Votes are a way of stating an opinion by the vote caster. Opinions cannot and should not be confined to some additional set of restrictive parameters. The diversity of the community here is going to be reflected in voting methods. In the end, it all averages out.
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11/19/2005 07:13:23 AM · #85 |
Why do we think an average score of 6 is low? To mean, that means the photographer is consistently producing images that are above average. If you took the top 10 shots from the challenges from say, just last year, those shots would probably make a fortune on a macro stock site.
If you have sold a shot for $100 or more, would you really care what score it earned here?
Yes, challenge entries here do tend to score lower than they might on another photography contest site, but the overall quality of entries also blows any other site away. I've had images that wouldn't do well here at all earn third place or higher on other sites.
I think the difference is a combination of the number of tip-top photographers and voters reserving 10's for only a few images in each challenge. Personally, I give out 10's to any image that I really like and would consider hanging on my wall, assuming no technical deficiencies and meets challenge. Just as liberal with the 3-4's if technically poor and doesn't meet the challenge. Rare for me to give a 1 or 2 - it would have to be pretty poor. I think voters here in general are less forgiving of technical deficiency when compared to other sites. |
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11/19/2005 08:40:55 AM · #86 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
Ok if I don't consider 5.5 as the middle what should I consider is the middle ? I also believe that the middle is quite different between member and open challenges. |
I suggest that the middle is not very different, and fairly consistentent.
Originally posted by keegbow:
The reason for my original post is to open up discussion and for a self anaylsis of how we vote as individuals and already we have some very interesting admissions. |
If you wanted a truely objective analysis why did you start with an unsupported premise? Your assumption that "we score so low" has biased this discussion from the beginning. Why didn't you start the thread with something like "Do we vote too high or too low?" My guess is that you believe, for some reason unknown to me, that we do vote too low; and that by calling attention to that premise you can convince people of it's validity. Are you hoping to change their behavior by pointing out what you think is a shortcoming in approach on the part of the voters?
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11/19/2005 09:02:52 AM · #87 |
| Regardless of how we vote, 1s or 10s, the pecking order will not change. Who has the best will still be number 1. |
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11/19/2005 09:53:11 AM · #88 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
I'm not looking for "the answer" just discussion and I'm certainly no math's wizz but I still believe the site as a whole rates images lower then they should and the only true test would to take a random selection of images from the site and have independant people rate this images in a 1 - 10 fashion. |
There is no "the answer" to be found for the question "Why do we score so low?" because there is no standard, or norm, for our voting patterns here at dpc to be compared to. There is no other competition that operates the same as our challenges, or even close enough to be a worthy comparison.
Why do you think the ratings from "independent people" would be any more valid than those of our voters? The only possibility I can think of is that you are trying to promote the idea of people not voting on challenges which they have entered. Is that what you hope to gain from this discussion?
We could have more aggressive controls on the so-called "troll" voters, on ghost accounts, on posting entries before voting is done, and on "helping", and on forum discussions. Many ideas have been offered to tighten up on the methods that could possibly be used to sway the voters. But they are always met with opposition from the community. People don't want to give up their "fun" to gain more accurate challenge results. And no one knows for sure how much more accurate, or different, the results would be. My guess is that about 95% of the time they would be substantially the same as now.
The only answer, if you must have one, is that our voters vote correctly.
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11/19/2005 12:13:44 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
I expect more images to finish above 7.
I base my judgement on the number of images that finish above 7 compared with the number of images that finish below 4. |
I couldn't DISagree more. It takes effort to separate a challenge entry from a snapshot that could've been taken by Aunt Mabel. Fewer people are willing to expend the necessary energy on careful lighting, composition, post-processing, etc. (not to mention going out of your way for a unique scene) to get a 7+ score, especally for a virtual ribbon. A great photo appeals to us because it's special- something that we don't see every day. Scoring below 4 requires little more than pushing a button.
There is a natural "gravity" to photography (as with any form of art), and without effort your score will fall. So, far from your premise, I am pleasantly surprised that so many entries DO score over 7. |
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11/19/2005 12:58:00 PM · #90 |
The question that goes through my mind all the time is "why do I care" what my score is?
Whether this community thinks it's a 4 or an 8 doesn't really validate it. There are those who undermine other photos (at least rumor has it of these "moles" to what end? Will their photography be more marketable, will it sell more, will they have better relations with their significant other?
So what is it that motivates us about these scores? I wish I understood my need for validation -
There's another great site that offers challenges. Photo buyers request certain subjects. You submit (usually less than 40 images entered per challenge) and the winning photo gets purchased for $350 or so. Now there's a site I can see caring about.
My obsession with a tiny gif next to my name still baffles me.
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11/19/2005 01:07:20 PM · #91 |
| I usually give out a lot of ones because I almost never seen any gratuitous nudity, cute pets, or flowers in pictures. |
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11/19/2005 01:09:40 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by Pedxer:
I usually give out a lot of ones because I almost never seen any gratuitous nudity, cute pets, or flowers in pictures. |
What does how much you have seen a certain subject have to do with quality of the photograph taken of that subject?
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11/19/2005 01:13:55 PM · #93 |
Seriously, after having participated in, and reading the subsequent posts on this, here's my decision.
If eveyone started voting higher, people would adjust their attitude to go along with those scores. People would start complaining, "I only have a 6.2, I suck". Just because you make a new status quo, does not mean that people will be any happier about the status quo.
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11/19/2005 01:36:59 PM · #94 |
An interesting thread because each member goes through a transtition and one can see one's folly in many of these posts.
Once the member evolves it becomes the aim to allow the top images to emerge. This is, after all, the object of competition. Of course, vested interest will still dominate many voters and you will always top rated figures with the pesky one's and two's, but these low numbers are sort of inherent in the system.
You must bear in mind that your port tells the story of your voting habits. If you are getting a higher value of votes received versus the votes you give then it becomes unwise to allow this margin to spread too far. It simply says your work is better than those you vote on and when people view your port they put two and two together. If your score of average vote cast is way in the cellar below the 5.0 mark, remain as you wish but reconsider posting remarks such as, 'I can't believe my image is at 4.3 in any particular challenge' The looker will bring up your profile and see your voting habit.
The same applies to members who hardly make comments and are constantly asking for comments. Again, your port is displayed and they all see the extent of your cooperation.
Like most of you, I am interested in making this site as great as possible but it requires a little effort from each member.
My advise on voting is simple: stick to what you are currently doing but always ask yourself is there room for improvement? Do I really want to give a one or a two here? These low numbers will bring havock to your average vote cast. Is the image really that bad that it will be worth lowering my values? The argument has nothing to do with first trying to maintain a high voting average but rather with the question of being overtly punitative or applying strict rules which insult your pedagogic sense. Whatever your reasons or habits there is always room for improvement and since we are all tied together here in cyber space it is incumbent that we function as an efficient and fair unit. |
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11/19/2005 01:43:32 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
My advise on voting is simple: stick to what you are currently doing but always ask yourself is there room for improvement? Do I really want to give a one or a two here? These low numbers will bring havock to your average vote cast. Is the image really that bad that it will be worth lowering my values? The argument has nothing to do with first trying to maintain a high voting average but rather with the question of being overtly punitative or applying strict rules which insult your pedagogic sense. Whatever your reasons or habits there is always room for improvement and since we are all tied together here in cyber space it is incumbent that we function as an efficient and fair unit. |
::claps:: bravo! unity is good. all this devisive talk lately has been getting me down.
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11/19/2005 02:12:03 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
My obsession with a tiny gif next to my name still baffles me. |
I feel your pain.
I had a choice of two photos for the camouflage challenge. One is a much better photo, the other was more likely to appeal.
To my great disgust, this time I went for votes :-( It looks like I made the right choice, at present it is shaping up to be my highest scoring photo, but I'm not proud of it. In fact, it hardly deserves the 6.5 it is getting. I have taken way better photos that didn't do as well as that *sigh*
Now how weird is that - complaining that I am doing BETTER than I think I should be? LOL |
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11/19/2005 02:20:25 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by Beetle:
To my great disgust, this time I went for votes :-( It looks like I made the right choice, at present it is shaping up to be my highest scoring photo, but I'm not proud of it. In fact, it hardly deserves the 6.5 it is getting. I have taken way better photos that didn't do as well as that *sigh*
Now how weird is that - complaining that I am doing BETTER than I think I should be? LOL |
Considering that you're taking pictures for others to vote on, instead of yourself, I'd consider that a success. You've figured out your target market pretty well, and have found a way to achieve success in that market. Hardly a failure or something to be ashamed of in my eyes. If you were taking photo's for a bunch of hippies, you'd change your MO, same for a bunch of aristocrats. Knowing your audience is one of the most important aspects of art, or any other communication.
Message edited by author 2005-11-19 14:20:41.
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11/19/2005 02:27:35 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
The argument has nothing to do with first trying to maintain a high voting average but rather with the question of being overtly punitative or applying strict rules which insult your pedagogic sense. Whatever your reasons or habits there is always room for improvement and since we are all tied together here in cyber space it is incumbent that we function as an efficient and fair unit. |
"Don't Vote Angry"
...is a thing I've posted in a few places sort of as a joke, when I felt that I was voting in a not so friendly state...or felt was going down based on heavy low voting periods (rollover time) by other members.
G-funk put it well by refering to voting in an "overtly punitive or pedagogic sense"
I'm somewhat curious how low voters fair themselves (the ones that hand out many 1's) and if they are bitter as someone put it.
I'm also curious about voters who NEVER give out 10's. I feel like I've seen hundreds and hundreds of top knotch, world class images here at DPC. Images that could easily hold up against any of the top photographers in the world. If it's an image that none could possibly improve on..why not give it a 10?
Why do some people dig in so hard with all their rules and methods? Not a very artistic approach to the whole thing...don't ya think?
I do have an idea...
If you don't enjoy low voters...look at their profiles and give them some serious, heartfelt, honest critiquing and include a score each time ...maybe that will sober them up a bit |
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11/19/2005 02:41:47 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by keegbow:
The reason for my original post is to open up discussion and for a self anaylsis of how we vote as individuals and already we have some very interesting admissions. |
My guess is that you believe, for some reason unknown to me, that we do vote too low; and that by calling attention to that premise you can convince people of it's validity. Are you hoping to change their behavior by pointing out what you think is a shortcoming in approach on the part of the voters? |
Only the people who vote well below the site average. |
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11/19/2005 02:50:51 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
Knowing your audience is one of the most important aspects of art, or any other communication. |
Excellent point! Now I'm smiling again :-) |
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