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DPChallenge Forums >> Hardware and Software >> anything in the camera is legal ?
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 03/29/2006 05:13:50 PM · #1
What if the camera has a touch screen, editing software and a stylus built in ? Sony DSC-N1
 03/29/2006 05:16:42 PM · #2
"Touch-Screen âPaintâ Function
You can easily stamp information and trace letters or drawings over your photo images using the stylus supplied with the DSC-N1 -- and your decorated images will be saved in VGA format without affecting your original photos."

Uh oh...
03/29/2006 05:16:47 PM · #3
I had brought this up to SC before... but as it stands now, technically, it would probably be legal. Clearly that sort of thing goes against the spirit of the rules, though.

I've seen other cameras that have built-in clip-art, which is also clearly against the spirit of the site. I would imagine that new rules may be introduced to prohibit such things once we start seeing them proliferate the site...
 03/29/2006 05:17:21 PM · #4
"Touch-Screen âPaintâ Function
You can easily stamp information and trace letters or drawings over your photo images using the stylus supplied with the DSC-N1 -- and your decorated images will be saved in VGA format without affecting your original photos."

Note that provides a VGA image (video graphics array) and does not affect the stored JPG; hence it would not survive validation.

R.
 03/29/2006 05:19:33 PM · #5
I am waiting for somebody with a D200 to combine two completely seperate images outside the challenge timeframe and create a third image that fits the timeframe - it's more than a double exposure feature :-))

Combine that with a technical challenge where they also ignore the description and it could be a huge wreck :-)

Sorry, just in that sort of mood today....

Message edited by author 2006-03-29 17:22:05.
 03/29/2006 05:19:36 PM · #6
Good point, Bear.
 03/29/2006 05:22:16 PM · #7
As Robert pointed out, the Sony cam's output would currently not pass validation. At some point, though, we'll be faced with a situation that demands it be addressed. I would assume, as Alan posted, that additional rules would need to be put in place to cover that. The nature of those rules is anyone's guess; it would depend on the specifics of the new capabilities.
 03/29/2006 05:25:57 PM · #8
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
"Touch-Screen âPaintâ Function
You can easily stamp information and trace letters or drawings over your photo images using the stylus supplied with the DSC-N1 -- and your decorated images will be saved in VGA format without affecting your original photos."

Note that provides a VGA image (video graphics array) and does not affect the stored JPG; hence it would not survive validation.

R.


I assume it means it saves it as a VGA resolution jpeg image (i.e., 640x480 which is currently all that's required for entry here) Even if it is some sony propritary format I've never heard of before, then it would just be the same as Canon RAW for example. I'd assume Sony would provide some sort of 'VGA' to JPG converter.

I'm pretty certain though that in this case VGA is just refering to the saved image resolution, that comes out of the camera. Mainly because they are using a VGA resolution touch screen.

Message edited by author 2006-03-29 17:31:54.
 03/29/2006 05:27:51 PM · #9
Originally posted by kirbic:
As Robert pointed out, the Sony cam's output would currently not pass validation.


How does Canon or Nikon's cam output currently pass validation then ? They don't spit out JPEGs either ;)

and just to quote

Any modification done inside the digital camera itself is considered acceptable for challenge submission.

So with the rules as they stand, if you modify it in the camera, it doesn't matter if it matches the original or not.

Message edited by author 2006-03-29 17:31:14.
 03/29/2006 05:31:30 PM · #10
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
"Touch-Screen âPaintâ Function
You can easily stamp information and trace letters or drawings over your photo images using the stylus supplied with the DSC-N1 -- and your decorated images will be saved in VGA format without affecting your original photos."

Note that provides a VGA image (video graphics array) and does not affect the stored JPG; hence it would not survive validation.

R.


I assume it means it saves it as a VGA resolution image (i.e., 640x480 which is currently all that's required for entry here) Even if it is some sony propritary format I've never heard of before, then it would just be the same as Canon RAW for example. I'd assume Sony would provide some sort of 'VGA' to JPG converter.

I'm pretty certain though that in this case VGA is just refering to the saved image resolution, that comes out of the camera. Mainly because they are using a VGA resolution touch screen, I'd guess too.


No, my point was it doesn't affect the stored JPG and that's where the "original" EXIF resides. Or so I was assuming. The VGA "copy", if it has EXIF at all, would show modification in the EXIF and not count as an unaltered original.

R.
 03/29/2006 05:32:22 PM · #11
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

No, my point was it doesn't affect the stored JPG and that's where the "original" EXIF resides. Or so I was assuming. The VGA "copy", if it has EXIF at all, would show modification in the EXIF and not count as an unaltered original.

R.


Doesn't matter either way :

Any modification done inside the digital camera itself is considered acceptable for challenge submission.

This isn't some hypothetical future camera - its available now in some parts of the world. I saw and played with one a month ago.

Message edited by author 2006-03-29 17:33:33.
 03/29/2006 05:35:08 PM · #12
Originally posted by robs:
I am waiting for somebody with a D200 to combine two completely seperate images outside the challenge timeframe and create a third image that fits the timeframe - it's more than a double exposure feature :-))


So, what if that happens. The EXIF should all be intact, thus it wouldn't be cheating...right? What if I use the D2X feature of double exposure? Is that ok?
 03/29/2006 05:41:09 PM · #13
Another "in-camera" anomally allowed in DPC rules is the clearly illogical situation where you are allowed to do something in the camera that is not allowed using it's post processing equivalent. That does not make a lot of sense and gives those with expensive cameras an unfair advantage.

If an in-camera capability is to be allowed, then it's post processing equivalent should also be allowed and vise versa.

For example, if multiple exposures are not allowed in post processing (and I don't think anybody wants that) then multiple exposures on the same frame in-camera should not be allowed either.

Message edited by author 2006-03-29 18:32:19.
 03/29/2006 06:02:49 PM · #14
This sounds like a fairly circular discussion. The rules allow for for any modifications done in-camera, but what happens when cameras come with on-digic versions of Adobe Photoshop (excuse the exaggeration)? Then of course, for anyone with a lot of cash, resources, and know how, why not build your own digital camera that runs on an Intel x86? Soon we'll be wondering whether cameras running Windows Vista should be allowed in the competitions. Furthermore, EXIF data is simply that - data. Given enough time, someone could (and probably already has) write a program that allows one to modify EXIF data. All in all, there's no way to be certain that people aren't cheating, so if you don't want to have a guilty conscience, use the number one rule for any trust-based competition: use your best judgement.
 03/29/2006 07:05:54 PM · #15
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by robs:
I am waiting for somebody with a D200 to combine two completely seperate images outside the challenge timeframe and create a third image that fits the timeframe - it's more than a double exposure feature :-))


So, what if that happens. The EXIF should all be intact, thus it wouldn't be cheating...right? What if I use the D2X feature of double exposure? Is that ok?


I guess it's fine since anything in camera is fine by the "rules". Would be strange to see NYC with snow in July as a backdrop for somebody skating in shorts but could be interesting I guess. :-) I was really talking about the combine image thing not the straight double exposure but as far as I understand I cannot do a double exposure in PS for a basic challenge but I could if I buy a D2X (or D200 or....).
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