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11/06/2003 08:24:04 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
You dont.
You trust that the voters can do what they do, and that's vote.
It works everywhere else that has rules like these. |
The only way that works is free-edit. Remove the DQ button, and anyone posts whatever they want. And, like I said above, despite your desire that the finished product be essentially a photograph, you will have a sizable selection of over-manipulated entries. Complaining about snapshots, puppies and kids doesn't stop those from being posted, and complaining that there's too many non-photographs won't stop those in this scenerio either. |
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11/06/2003 08:31:28 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
i disagree with you. i said 'most', not all. you may be different. more power to you, if so. that's beside the point, and calling me names doesn't change that.
Originally posted by sonnyh:
I disagree with you over this statement. In fact you sound like an elitist by saying it. |
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If you want to split hairs, she said it makes you sound elitist - and it does. In this last post you had a lot of valid points and content. In the one she was responding to, you basically denegrated the majority of those who disagree with you on this point as being simpletons amazed that pushing a button on a shiney silver box captures an image. Really, you did.
Now, lets all hug and say we're sorry.... ;)
Message edited by author 2003-11-06 20:34:08. |
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11/06/2003 08:44:38 PM · #103 |
magnetic-
That was an example. My photos are legal for DPC. Also, I never said that we didn't want the same things -- I was just put off by your line that some people are happy that they just took a picture. |
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11/06/2003 09:05:16 PM · #104 |
then i miscommunicated my point, which was to recognize that new digital photographers are often still excited and wowed with the initial parts of digital photography, and not so much to the point of focussing on certain minutae, that even tho they seem minute, actually matter a lot to the final result (like editing dust, slightly brightening up a backlit face, etc). i myself was in exactly the same state - and for quite a long time!
it wasn't intended to be 'one is better than the other', so much as recognizing that these different groups may have some different needs. it would be nice if, by consensus, we could agree on some things that would help everyone get their needs met and be happy and hold hands and walk in the summer sun :) ..
seriously, i think it's really just as simple as recognizing that, just as schools have gradated levels, that if dpc truly has the subtexted mission of learning, that it may need gradations as well. there are people at too many points on the continuum to expect that a one size fits all solution is going to let them all stretch. is a 3rd grader 'BETTER' than a kindergartner? No, they're just at different points along the curve.
beginner isnt an insult. it's a recognition of a point in the person's evolution on a particular topic.
does that clear it up ? : )
Message edited by author 2003-11-06 21:07:47.
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11/06/2003 09:26:45 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by ScottK:
The only way that works is free-edit.
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Yes. That's what I'm proposing. Tools have nothing to do with the issue.
Originally posted by ScottK:
Complaining about snapshots, puppies and kids doesn't stop those from being posted, and complaining that there's too many non-photographs won't stop those in this scenerio either. |
Yup - you are right. Complaining about it doesn't change it - so why worry about it. Accept that there will be people who just post things, regardless of the real point of the challenges, but why should that restrict people who wish to grow and improve their photography ?
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11/06/2003 09:37:44 PM · #106 |
"Yet everyone who argues against opening up editing thinks that what I and the pro-editing people want is to make crazy photoshop pictures .. "
That's not why I am in favor of keeping the rules the way they are. I am sure you would not enter anything like that. I think there are many like me, maybe mostly beginners, or relatively inexperienced, that like the challenges very much, view them as an invaluable learning tool, and don't want them taken away. I think that is a legitimate way to feel about this site. Maybe it is something that many people grow out of as their skills develop, but as was said earlier, we are all beginners once. I don't know much at all about how the rules are enforced, and how dq requests are handled, but it seems that the system is working fairly well.
I guess what I really feel is that dpc is too good to take a chance on messing it up. If a change in the rules turns out to be degrading to the overall dpc experience, we may not be able to get back to where we are now without fatally wounding what we are all here for.
How about some specific, well-thought-out proposals drafted with an eye toward enforceability and ensuring that we maintain the quality of the site as a learning experience. And if such come forward, how about some comments from those who have the power to adopt them, and those who would have the responsibility to enforce them. This same debate seems to go on forever without ever getting anywhere. Could our leaders please give us a clue about there plans or intentions, and maybe, just maybe, bring this incessant, devisive debate to a conclusion?
Message edited by author 2003-11-06 21:43:00. |
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11/06/2003 09:42:20 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
"Yet everyone who argues against opening up editing thinks that what I and the pro-editing people want is to make crazy photoshop pictures .. "
That's not why I am in favor of keeping the rules the way they are. I am sure you would not enter anything like that. I think there are many like me, maybe mostly beginners, or relatively inexperienced, that like the challenges very much, view them as an invaluable learning tool, and don't want them taken away. |
Where do you think they would go ? |
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11/06/2003 09:44:26 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
This same debate seems to go on forever without ever getting anywhere. Could our leaders please give us a clue about there plans or intentions, and maybe, just maybe, bring this incessant, devisive debate to a conclusion? |
If you look back over the history of this long and winding debate, it has always been the community 'leaders' that have been pushing the hardest for changes, and typically the newest members or least experienced pushing hardest for the status quo. I don't say this as an elitist comment, or even as a member of the site leadership any more, but that has been how it has been for the 2 years or so that I've been here. |
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11/06/2003 10:35:36 PM · #109 |
I think they could go to a place where the people who don't yet have a high level of editing skills would not have a chance to do well, and maybe earn a ribbon. Those who are still working hard to master the photography end of it could be relegated to a less important role, become discouraged and fall by the wayside. It could become a site for advanced editors at the expense of the beginners. And it may hurt the site's ability to attract new members and retain the current ones. In other words, dpc could lose all distinction and become just like so many other sites where beginners have a hard time competing and don't learn much.
As far as the leaders, I would include Drew and Langdon in that. And the Site Council speaking in a united, authoritative way, not just their personal opinions. I can't recall anything close to official from them indicating what direction they want the site to go in regarding this issue. A simple statement from them saying that the rules are going to stay as they are for the next six months, or a year, would end an awful lot of needless wrangling in the forums. Or, on the other hand, say that new rules are in the works and will be out soon. Just find a way to bring this debate to fruition, and devote our resources to things more instructive about digital photography. Then again, maybe the people who want to change the rules have nothing to lose by just keeping this thing alive, hoping to wear down the status quo crowd. |
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11/06/2003 10:42:14 PM · #110 |
I still like the idea of maybe a third challenge per week, be it open or members only, that allows the edits.
Wouldn't that give everyone what they want, as far as anyone can, by allowing people to pick the entry style they prefer?
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11/06/2003 10:58:24 PM · #111 |
This is just an idea. Since there seems to be so much debate about editing, non-editing, beginners, advanced etc. Why not try having 2 or 3 categories for entrants into challenges. You decide if you want to enter the beginner category, the middle category or the advanced category. The beginners could be rules they way they are now, middle category could be a little more editing allowed and advanced could be whatever you want. If you pick beginner then you need to have a certain point average after let's say 15 challenge entries to be able to move up to the next level and same goes for the middle level up to the advanced. This way beginners could all learn what they need to and the advanced people could do what they wanted. Seems to be a way for everyone to be happy. Maybe on the beginner level there would have to be a rotating panel of advanced people to put input into the voting. Maybe not. This is just an idea and nothing more.
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11/06/2003 11:05:15 PM · #112 |
I think I like Natator's idea. It seems the simplest to me, anyway.
It could be set up like it is now, only on Sunday night when the challenge is announced there is "Challenge X -- open editing" and "Challenge X -- restricted editing." A person could enter the one they wanted, or needed, but the challenge topic would be the same.
I would like to have the option, I think, because there have been times when I simply don't need to do the "illegal" stuff. As it is, I usually need to spot edit in challenges where I can't, and don't need to when I can. :-/
I would propose that it be members only, as to add another "benefit," and perhaps incentive, to pay.
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11/06/2003 11:12:01 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by karmat:
I think I like Natator's idea. It seems the simplest to me, anyway.
It could be set up like it is now, only on Sunday night when the challenge is announced there is "Challenge X -- open editing" and "Challenge X -- restricted editing." A person could enter the one they wanted, or needed, but the challenge topic would be the same.
I would like to have the option, I think, because there have been times when I simply don't need to do the "illegal" stuff. As it is, I usually need to spot edit in challenges where I can't, and don't need to when I can. :-/
I would propose that it be members only, as to add another "benefit," and perhaps incentive, to pay. |
This might be good, but frankly I think it misses the point entirely. But I'm not sure why I even got back into this discussion again - I realise its a pointless thing to try and change. |
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11/06/2003 11:20:10 PM · #114 |
Misses the point? I think it hits the nail on the head.
When I first started DPC, many moons ago, I knew virtually nothing about photography, much less post processing. Had I had to compete against gurus like you who can do anything, I would have hung up the tripod a long time ago. Dang, it was intimidating enough entering "regular ole" pictures into competitions. Now, I know a little bit more and would be braver to attempt some stuff.
The point is, by splitting it this way, those of you who are adept at post processing could have your unlimited edits as much as you wanted. You could photoshop away. Those of us who aren't as comfortable, could work on other skills first, then venture into that arena as we feel competant.
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11/06/2003 11:20:50 PM · #115 |
I agree with and completely adhere to DPC's challenge rules, I have no problem with them.
That being said, it's kinda weird how desaturation (B&W leaving one specific color) is perfectly fine, yet dodging and burning is a no no because it may make the images appear too photoshopped".
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11/07/2003 03:28:47 AM · #116 |
It would be more challenging if there were two types of Challenge - the current type and one where anything goes BUT at the vote point the methods used are stated so that the picture is judged in relation to the digital darkroom expertise used. This would also create a learning/teaching resource.
I remember with just a little bit of bitterness a photographic club I was a member of for some years where all comps were open and guess what all the top "awards" regularly went to those expert enough to make good use of their darkrooms. This meant that IMO many new beginner members dropped by the wayside (i.e.left quickly) because there was no real encouragement of opportunity for growth even with a small attempt at a mentoring system.
Oh, my 2 awards in approx 4 years were from 35mm slides - 90% of what I shot was slide at that time. |
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11/07/2003 03:41:51 AM · #117 |
Of course, and apologies if this has been mentioned earlier in this thread, why not have a 'creative edit' challence once a month for members only. Then everybody would be happy. People could then edit photos till the cows come home.
Message edited by author 2003-11-07 03:54:43.
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11/07/2003 07:17:35 AM · #118 |
"free edit" is one thing, but every time we have a free edit challenge here, people use it as an oppertunity for digital art..
I kind of like the idea of having 2 member challenges, 2 completly different subjects, scattered a bit. Say the sunday challenge would be the no edit challenge, and then wednesday, the editing challenge can be started.. the photos in this challenge should still look like a photograph, and any visible editing should be frowned upon (i know i already vote that poorly, since thats not the point of this website, even if it's DPC legal). Granted this gives extra work to figure out a third topic each week, but it doesn't look like the "no edit" people are about to change their minds anytime soon.
Question: The polls we've had up to now.. regarding editing. Were these available to any dpchallenge user? or just the paying memebers? if it was for everyone, i'd be interested in seeing the results of memebers only, since it seems any "editing" challenge we might come up with would be a members only challenge anyway. If the polls WERE only for the members, then disregard this :)
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11/07/2003 08:47:45 AM · #119 |
Originally posted by Refracted:
"free edit" is one thing, but every time we have a free edit challenge here, people use it as an oppertunity for digital art.. |
bingo, and i think that's what is scaring a bunch of people off. no one is asking for permission to go in and "liquify" parts of their photo.
i get into this topic in other threads, but i've kind of stayed out of this one. all i'm going to say is that this is not a PHOTOGRAPHY website. it's a DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY website. look at the page header.
if we were a PHOTOGRAPHY site, we'd be expected to use darkroom techniques to a) develop and b) improve on our images. since we don't have that ability, the computer becomes our darkroom. NO ONE ON THIS SITE PARTICIPATES WITHOUT THE INTERACTION WITH SOME KIND OF COMPUTER! since that is fact, my question is... why are we restricting the extent to which we can use that computer? especially when it plays the role of our "darkroom."
no serious photographer would go into the darkroom and just develop what comes off of the film and present it as their final work. even photos that get developed at your local drugstore have some post-processing automated into the developing process.
every other photo website i've gone to has a little blurb in the disclaimer that says "spot-editing is OK, but don't go nuts." nowhere on those sites are there photos with pictures of x-wing fighters pasted in. why is that so difficult for us to accomplish?
Message edited by author 2003-11-07 08:50:08. |
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11/07/2003 08:53:35 AM · #120 |
Originally posted by Refracted:
Question: The polls we've had up to now.. regarding editing. Were these available to any dpchallenge user? or just the paying memebers? if it was for everyone, i'd be interested in seeing the results of memebers only, since it seems any "editing" challenge we might come up with would be a members only challenge anyway. If the polls WERE only for the members, then disregard this :) |
I am not sure, but I think the latest poll (in March) was posed to just members questioning the desire for a monthly unlimited editing challenge:
Would you like to have a (members-only) monthly unlimited editing challenge?
No 16
Yes, in place of that week's challenge 31
Yes, in addition to that week's challenge 115
162 users participated.
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11/07/2003 09:22:46 AM · #121 |
Originally posted by Refracted:
"free edit" is one thing, but every time we have a free edit challenge here, people use it as an oppertunity for digital art..
I kind of like the idea of having 2 member challenges, 2 completly different subjects, scattered a bit. Say the sunday challenge would be the no edit challenge, and then wednesday, the editing challenge can be started.. the photos in this challenge should still look like a photograph, and any visible editing should be frowned upon (i know i already vote that poorly, since thats not the point of this website, even if it's DPC legal). Granted this gives extra work to figure out a third topic each week, but it doesn't look like the "no edit" people are about to change their minds anytime soon.
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Yes - this hits the nail right on the head - it isn't just 'free editing' that would fix everything- that's why the current 'totally open no rules' challenges are missing the point. |
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11/07/2003 09:48:34 AM · #122 |
warning, read the whole post!
I'm one of the newer members that would not like free editing because my photography skills aren't that strong yet and I lack the skill in ps to do anything really creative. I have seen some masters a ps and in some of their collages, it would be impossible to know what they added and what was real. So, if I was directly competeing with someone with this level of skill, I'd never have a chance and I'd get discouraged pretty fast because I'm here to compete and that means at some point I want to win.
That said, I think a way around the debate is to open it up and allow spot editing using traditional darkroom techniques, but to have a check box on the entry form stating it is edited(this doesn't have to be visable in the challenge because that might cause bias on the voters part) and also have it so those that edit have to upload their unedited shot before the picture will be posted in the challenge. That way, those that want to remove dust spots and dodge and burn can do that and the ones that don't want to will not be at a disadvantage and it would prevent people from using several pictures to make one picture.
Or. Split up the challenges and skill levels like someone else mentioned. |
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11/07/2003 09:59:15 AM · #123 |
I think requiring people to upload an unedited version would be good for two reasons
1/ removed the likelyhood of collages/multiple images being used - it should be obvious if you have to upload the original single picture used, that it should be from a single source.
2/ would be educational if it could be seen after voting to show how an image can be improved or what it started out as. |
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11/07/2003 10:12:55 AM · #124 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by Refracted:
"free edit" is one thing, but every time we have a free edit challenge here, people use it as an oppertunity for digital art.. |
bingo, and i think that's what is scaring a bunch of people off. no one is asking for permission to go in and "liquify" parts of their photo.
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Those challenge topics were particularly suited to compositing and special effects, and having the opportunity to add components, people took it.
We can easily make it a rule that you can use only one source mage, and that the top ten (or ten percent) of images will need the original uploaded for verification. But other than that (and date/photographer restrictions) I think it would only work if we then eliminate all other technique-related DQs and let the votes determine the appropriateness of the effort, not endless Site Council reviews. |
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11/07/2003 10:32:13 AM · #125 |
i just want to edit my dust.
i just want to edit my dust.
i just want to edit my dust.
i just want to edit my dust.
i just want to edit my dust.
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