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06/06/2010 05:41:43 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by Louis:
I don't believe that the photos here are generally above average. I actually believe the opposite. Out of any challenge, only a few are above average, and sometimes none.
Asking people to join you in rewarding mediocrity with an above-average vote of 6 is counter productive, it dilutes the quality of submissions further, and it does a disservice to people trying to learn from their poor scores. |
Louis, your very high average certainly establishes you as one of the better photographers on this site. You have the right to call them as you see fit. However, it would be awesome if you could offer insight and suggestions to help the rest of us improve, instead of just telling everyone else what mediocre crap our stuff is. That is probably not your reason for being on DPC, however. |
Bah- He's a sniper.. 27 challenges entered since 2006... :)
Still, he does enter some very nice work... I just don't think he's appreciative enough of how hard it is to shoot things that are not in your "sweet spot".. However to be fair, he makes himself sound worse than his 5.2 voting average.. |
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06/06/2010 05:45:35 PM · #27 |
I don't care how you vote! so I won't join you. I vote how I want to vote and I justify it to no one.
Although I will pledge not to read or post into these voting threads again. |
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06/06/2010 05:48:42 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Louis:
This thread has the feel of calling out low voters, or accusing people of "not appreciating" photos by low voting. Yes, I read the part where you said this was an effort only at reforming yourself, but you are asking people to "join" you, so I feel it appropriate to say that I think your idea is wrong-headed. I don't believe that the photos here are generally above average. I actually believe the opposite. Out of any challenge, only a few are above average, and sometimes none.
Asking people to join you in rewarding mediocrity with an above-average vote of 6 is counter productive, it dilutes the quality of submissions further, and it does a disservice to people trying to learn from their poor scores.
So, that's the other side. |
Ouch Louis... what a way to bash the entire group of people in one shot...
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06/06/2010 05:56:01 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by Louis:
I don't believe that the photos here are generally above average. I actually believe the opposite. Out of any challenge, only a few are above average, and sometimes none.
Asking people to join you in rewarding mediocrity with an above-average vote of 6 is counter productive, it dilutes the quality of submissions further, and it does a disservice to people trying to learn from their poor scores. |
Louis, your very high average certainly establishes you as one of the better photographers on this site. You have the right to call them as you see fit. However, it would be awesome if you could offer insight and suggestions to help the rest of us improve, instead of just telling everyone else what mediocre crap our stuff is. That is probably not your reason for being on DPC, however. |
For what it's worth i've found Louis extremely helpful and willing to offer insight and suggestions on some of my images. He's certainly one of a handful of people here that i'll go to to ask for help and critique.
Message edited by author 2010-06-06 17:57:21. |
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06/06/2010 06:01:44 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
For what it's worth i've found Louis extremely helpful and willing to offer insight and suggestions on some of my images. He's certainly one of a handful of people here that i'll go to to ask for help and critique. |
I'll take your word for that, since I've not been one of the folks receiving that advice. |
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06/06/2010 06:06:31 PM · #31 |
Amazing how these threads turn....
The op was benign and could have been ignored by those who though it was dumb or silly. Instead he was called out and stomped by some. |
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06/06/2010 06:17:40 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by Louis:
This thread has the feel of calling out low voters, or accusing people of "not appreciating" photos by low voting. Yes, I read the part where you said this was an effort only at reforming yourself, but you are asking people to "join" you, so I feel it appropriate to say that I think your idea is wrong-headed. I don't believe that the photos here are generally above average. I actually believe the opposite. Out of any challenge, only a few are above average, and sometimes none.
Asking people to join you in rewarding mediocrity with an above-average vote of 6 is counter productive, it dilutes the quality of submissions further, and it does a disservice to people trying to learn from their poor scores.
So, that's the other side. |
When I read what the OP posted originally, then I read what you posted here, I think you are way off base on his "intent".
Furthermore, I agree with him that most people do not stop to look at any challenge image long enough to ask themselves what the maker intended.
The spirit of your post makes me wonder if you shouldn't re-read what the OP posted and take some of it to heart. |
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06/06/2010 06:42:34 PM · #33 |
I'll join when they pry the 1's and 2's from my cold, dead hands.
edit: forgot the smiley. ;-)
Message edited by author 2010-06-06 18:43:02. |
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06/06/2010 06:47:27 PM · #34 |
I have not read all the posts, but I personally do not enter shots so I can get a high score and feel good. I prefer an honest evaluation, and tend to give them also. Even if I enter the best photo I have ever taken, that does not mean it is good, and if it is not good then it should not receive a high score. How can we learn if voters just make us feel good?
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06/06/2010 06:56:03 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
How can we learn if voters just make us feel good? |
I believe the OP is not asking for "feel good" or ego stroking scores, but rather to not score images down because they are not necessarily National Geographic quality. He is simply urging voters to look for the good qualities in an image rather than slamming it after a 2 second cursory glance. |
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06/06/2010 06:58:43 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by fldave:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
How can we learn if voters just make us feel good? |
I believe the OP is not asking for "feel good" or ego stroking scores, but rather to not score images down because they are not necessarily National Geographic quality. He is simply urging voters to look for the good qualities in an image rather than slamming it after a 2 second cursory glance. |
Yes, that's pretty much the whole thing in a nutshell.. |
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06/06/2010 07:03:50 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by fldave:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
How can we learn if voters just make us feel good? |
I believe the OP is not asking for "feel good" or ego stroking scores, but rather to not score images down because they are not necessarily National Geographic quality. He is simply urging voters to look for the good qualities in an image rather than slamming it after a 2 second cursory glance. |
Yes, that's pretty much the whole thing in a nutshell.. |
And I believe that this was exactly the original intent of this website, and indeed, what it was very close to being, years ago.
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06/06/2010 07:29:39 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by LindaLee:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by fldave:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
How can we learn if voters just make us feel good? |
I believe the OP is not asking for "feel good" or ego stroking scores, but rather to not score images down because they are not necessarily National Geographic quality. He is simply urging voters to look for the good qualities in an image rather than slamming it after a 2 second cursory glance. |
Yes, that's pretty much the whole thing in a nutshell.. |
And I believe that this was exactly the original intent of this website, and indeed, what it was very close to being, years ago. |
Which is why years ago, some people managed to score ~8.5... I do however, think those days are long gone. Still seeing an 8 more often would be cool... It's not about the number really, it's more about the appreciation shown...
By the way, take a look at some of these ~8.5 photos from years ago-- What would you vote it today?
By the way, two of those are in the first 200 images uploaded... The last shot is just short of the 10,000th photograph uploaded.. It hasn't happened since.. That's almost eight years, and over 800,000 photographs, not a single 8.5..
Clearly, the appreciation was somewhat higher early on... |
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06/06/2010 07:41:37 PM · #39 |
Yes, sadly, those days ARE gone.
But, that is why this site was such a jewel "back in the day" - people took the time to look, to appreciate, to help each other really learn. I learned a lot here. A LOT. And I've met some really great people, some in person, some just online, but I appreciate them.
These days, to me, it seems to be more about the instant gratitude eye candy, and there are more than a few who seem to enjoy beating others up, not building others up. I find that sad.
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06/06/2010 07:46:38 PM · #40 |
I wouldn't say appreciation was higher early on. More so that the voting trend had become more standardized as cameras and lenses have improved and people have become more creative. Certainly, in that same Table Shot challenge, the blurriness of the 2nd place and the chromatic aberrations of the 3rd place would have a lower score today. But then, the ideas were totally different.
Its just not a fair comparison between 2002 and 2010.
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Clearly, the appreciation was somewhat higher early on... |
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06/06/2010 07:55:21 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Clearly, the appreciation was somewhat higher early on... |
May be or may be not.
May be the expectations are much higher now. Voters expect you to be much better than now then they did that time.
I agree with Louis though, rewarding mediocrity is not good thing.
I often hear people on these boards say that they want to learn and have open mind, but they can not handle a slight candid criticism of their work. (you already know of that you were called out in a thread about a comment).
If you say i am here to learn and improve then be open for others to tell you what they actual think of it.
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06/06/2010 08:01:34 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by PGerst:
I wouldn't say appreciation was higher early on. More so that the voting trend had become more standardized as cameras and lenses have improved and people have become more creative. Certainly, in that same Table Shot challenge, the blurriness of the 2nd place and the chromatic aberrations of the 3rd place would have a lower score today. But then, the ideas were totally different.
Its just not a fair comparison between 2002 and 2010.
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Clearly, the appreciation was somewhat higher early on... |
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I see your point... However, let's spin this a bit.. I think that today we produce work that is (arguably) superior in quality.. I also think this trend has been probably quite steady. Yet the scores today are lower than ever... I think higher quality work deserves higher scores.. Therefore today's scores should have actually gone up, not down.. |
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06/06/2010 08:05:46 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by zxaar:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Clearly, the appreciation was somewhat higher early on... |
May be or may be not.
May be the expectations are much higher now. Voters expect you to be much better than now then they did that time.
I agree with Louis though, rewarding mediocrity is not good thing.
I often hear people on these boards say that they want to learn and have open mind, but they can not handle a slight candid criticism of their work. (you already know of that you were called out in a thread about a comment).
If you say i am here to learn and improve then be open for others to tell you what they actual think of it. |
As you have seen from me being called out... I won't hesitate to criticize people's work.. I used to feel conflicted complaining about something in a photo and NOT scoring it lower than 5.. Now?? Bah! I'll vote 9 and still bitch about something... Don't worry, I'll let people know what they can improve.. I just want to give them a nice score too! |
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06/06/2010 08:07:13 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
I'll vote 9 and still bitch about something... |
I'll confirm that! |
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06/06/2010 08:09:26 PM · #45 |
I'm a bit with Louis on this one: besides the fact that we both seem to have a 5.2 average vote given, inflating the average score is really not in anyone's interest. I could give everyone in the next ten challenges tens, and I would have raised my average score given, and made some people feel better than if I gave them the score I think their submission deserves.
Here is what I will pledge.
I will figure out that an average score from one to ten is not a five. I will start voting with my cursor between five and six, where the average score of five point five is.
I will take at least five seconds to look at a shot before I rate it.
I will comment on any shot I give below a five to.
At the end of voting I will review my votes and look for images that don't belong in that group and move them up or down as suits.
And I will hope that I can get my average score given to a 5.5, but its a lot easier to take a bad picture than a good one. |
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06/06/2010 08:11:25 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
I'm a bit with Louis on this one: besides the fact that we both seem to have a 5.2 average vote given, inflating the average score is really not in anyone's interest. I could give everyone in the next ten challenges tens, and I would have raised my average score given, and made some people feel better than if I gave them the score I think their submission deserves.
Here is what I will pledge.
I will figure out that an average score from one to ten is not a five. I will start voting with my cursor between five and six, where the average score of five point five is.
I will take at least five seconds to look at a shot before I rate it.
I will comment on any shot I give below a five to.
At the end of voting I will review my votes and look for images that don't belong in that group and move them up or down as suits.
And I will hope that I can get my average score given to a 5.5, but its a lot easier to take a bad picture than a good one. |
As far as I'm concerned, that's GREAT! I wouldn't ask for more! |
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06/06/2010 08:14:55 PM · #47 |
What does the "score" matter anyway? Blue ribbon is blue ribbon, red is red. Who is to say that a blue ribbon winner can win with a 5.0?
Originally posted by coryboehne:
I see your point... However, let's spin this a bit.. I think that today we produce work that is (arguably) superior in quality.. I also think this trend has been probably quite steady. Yet the scores today are lower than ever... I think higher quality work deserves higher scores.. Therefore today's scores should have actually gone up, not down.. |
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06/06/2010 08:16:30 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by PGerst:
What does the "score" matter anyway? Blue ribbon is blue ribbon, red is red. Who is to say that a blue ribbon winner can win with a 5.0?
Originally posted by coryboehne:
I see your point... However, let's spin this a bit.. I think that today we produce work that is (arguably) superior in quality.. I also think this trend has been probably quite steady. Yet the scores today are lower than ever... I think higher quality work deserves higher scores.. Therefore today's scores should have actually gone up, not down.. |
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It shows appreciation.
They could indeed ribbon with a 5.0, but that would be a pretty damn poor showing of appreciation IMHO..
Message edited by author 2010-06-06 20:17:14. |
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06/06/2010 08:17:05 PM · #49 |
Why?
ETA: Besides, appreciation is generally shown with comments, not a 1, 2, 3, 8, 9, 10.
Originally posted by coryboehne:
They could, but that would be a damn poor showing of appreciation.. |
Message edited by author 2010-06-06 20:21:49. |
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06/06/2010 08:20:27 PM · #50 |
| If an average shot "should" end up with a 5.5 yet everyone gave it a 6, that would cause the score of an average shot to be over 5.5. It will still be an average shot regardless of what the final score received is... For me, the idea is to eventually move beyond average, and low votes help me realize I still need to improve. (Of course, comments would help, but there aren't as many thanks to those who complain when voters give their actual opinions.) |
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