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Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/07/2004 07:18:48 PM · #276

Say, as I recall the big problem with flu vaccine is that the flu virus evolves every year into a new organism, which is not susceptible to the antibodies produced under the stimulus of the previous year's vaccine.

Similar problem with HIV.

myqyl

Nikon D3100

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G DX VR

11/07/2004 07:24:55 PM · #277

Originally posted by ericlimon:

If you believe the bible, which you obviously do, then god is a man.

Well, since you seem to know what I do and don't believe better than I do, I guess I'll drop out of this thread... When someone else starts telling me what I think, I know that further discussion is useless... To those that listened and discussed with me, thank you for a stimulating and intellegent discussion... To those that already have decided not only what they believe, but what I believe as well, Have a nice life :)

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

11/07/2004 07:35:07 PM · #278

Originally posted by myqyl:

Originally posted by ericlimon:
If you believe the bible, which you obviously do, then god is a man.

Well, since you seem to know what I do and don't believe better than I do, I guess I'll drop out of this thread... When someone else starts telling me what I think, I know that further discussion is useless... To those that listened and discussed with me, thank you for a stimulating and intellegent discussion... To those that already have decided not only what they believe, but what I believe as well, Have a nice life :)

It just seemed obvious (to me) that you believe what the bible says. You asked me what my rational for thinking that god is a man, and I quoted the bible. Sorry if your so upset that the bible tells us that god is a man, but it does. And I didn't mean to offend you by assuming that you believed in the bible.

David Ey

Nikon D80

11/07/2004 07:47:42 PM · #279

and do you look like your parents or do one of you look like a monkey?

Originally posted by frychikn:

Originally posted by David Ey:
If we came from monkeys, why do we still have monkeys?

I came from my parents, and we still had my parents for several years afterwards.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/07/2004 07:56:51 PM · #280

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Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

11/07/2004 08:12:57 PM · #281

Originally posted by David Ey:

and do you look like your parents or do one of you look like a monkey?

Originally posted by frychikn:

Originally posted by David Ey:
If we came from monkeys, why do we still have monkeys?

I came from my parents, and we still had my parents for several years afterwards.

yeah,
white hairless monkeys!

It's kinda funny... Using your basis David, a great Dane and a poodle aren't both dogs!

Oh, and someone asked why there aren't new species popping up every few years... well, since poodles and Great Danes are not of the same species, then we have 2 completely new species that have been bred into existance!

WOW, it's SO crazy!!!

Message edited by author 2004-11-07 20:13:22.

David Ey

Nikon D80

11/07/2004 08:46:44 PM · #282

actually the General made his post before mine
and, I was just replying to his funny reply of:"I came from my parents, and we still had my parents for several years afterwards."

I had no idea his sense of humour was so shortlived

11/07/2004 09:56:04 PM · #283

Originally posted by ericlimon:

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by ericlimon:
If you believe the bible, which you obviously do, then god is a man.

And if you believe what you just stated, then you must believe that a mirror is also a man, since you can see your image in it. :)

RonB, that is about the silliest thing you have ever writen. When was the last time you refered to the mirror as "Him"?

BTW - "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

So you should love everyone as you love yourself right? Does that include gay people?

It absolutely does. Why do you ask, since it seems so obvious from what Christ said?

frychikn

Olympus C-5050Z

11/07/2004 10:05:02 PM · #284

Originally posted by David Ey:

Oh no, my sense of humor does NOT cover insulting my late parents. I realize the posters here are going to insult me, so go ahead and insult away; I will just consider the source. However, kindly refrain from insulting my late parents, or any other of my ancestors or family members, none of whom ever did any harm to any of the posters here.

Message edited by author 2004-11-07 22:06:23.

11/07/2004 10:31:47 PM · #285

Originally posted by frychikn:

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
We know that everything we are made of (Oxygen, Sulfur, Iron, etc.) was formed inside a previous star which then went nova, and the detritus of which combined with the remains of other dead stars to form our Solar system and ourselves. Seems like that's enough time for a starfaring race to have evolved somewhere ...

Just how do we "know" this? I don't think "we" do - "know" it, that is.

I am not one of the "we" you refer to as "knowing" that which you state. I think that some people just "accept" what you stated on "faith" because the "scientists" said so. And the scientist can't "prove" it.

What is so different in you having "faith" in science, and me having "faith" in God? Neither one of us can "prove" their theories to the other.

The most important difference, as far as I'm concerned, is that no scientist has ever threatened me with being tortured forever after I die if I don't agree with their theory. Also, I don't recall reading in any history books or newspapers such things as people being stretched on racks or burned at the stake for refusing to believe the theory of relativity. I have not seen any documented cases of such things as long bloody wars between the 'big-bangers' and the 'steady-staters'.

I'm sorry if some religion has threatened you with eternal death. That should have been stated as a simple reality according to their understanding, and not a threat. And if you don't agree with their theory, then, even if it were a threat, it would be meaningless anyway, wouldn't it? So what's the big deal? Furthermore, if you consider that as a threat, then you must also consider that the scientists have threatened you with . . . . . . . .
. . . well, nothingness, for forever, after you die - that is, if you believe their theory.

I don't know of anyone who has been tortured over the theory of relativity either. Though I did hear that, in the not too distant past, many were tortured and killed for believing in the genetic equality of the races.

Surely, there have been wars rooted in religios fanaticism, but there have also been wars rooted in non-religious causes - for land, for love, for power, for no other reason than that one hates ones neighbors. Tribal wars, gang wars, drug wars, etc. Religion holds no corner on the market of war.

Do you also fear your neighbor? The countries that border your country? The cliques at your town's high school?

I think that your fear of religion is irrational. Perhaps even bordering on Christophobia.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/08/2004 10:06:53 AM · #286

Originally posted by David Ey:

Yes, I have a pretty good idea what a million years is. I also understand a million one, million two, million three, etc. Where's all the new animals?

11/08/2004 10:26:19 AM · #287

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by ericlimon:

Originally posted by RonB:
[quote=ericlimon]If you believe the bible, which you obviously do, then god is a man.

And if you believe what you just stated, then you must believe that a mirror is also a man, since you can see your image in it. :)

RonB, that is about the silliest thing you have ever writen. When was the last time you refered to the mirror as "Him"?

Thanks for answering the second question honestly, There seems to be several people (not you) who keep preaching about gays and god. (It's evil and against gods will) And even IF it is against Gods will, the bible still clearly states that the most important thing is love of god and neighbor (not the actual quote, but you get my drift). Besides, God created everything and is in everything, right? So that means god made people gay, and they should be loved and respected and treated equally since they are gods creations. I'm asking you (not attacking for an answer) because you seem to be a God fearing person, and know a bit about your religion. I'm arming myself against those people who seem to think gay people are evil and what they do is against gods will. (which it isn't since "god" created them)
P.S. you still haven't answered the mirror question. Which I'm sure I already know the answer :D

And David Ey - I'll post this again -

Originally posted by David Ey:
and do you look like your parents or do one of you look like a monkey?

yeah,
white hairless monkeys!

It's kinda funny... Using your basis David, a great Dane and a poodle aren't both dogs!

Oh, and someone asked why there aren't new species popping up every few years... well, since poodles and Great Danes are not of the same species, then we have 2 completely new species that have been bred into existance!

WOW, it's SO crazy!!!

11/08/2004 04:36:32 PM · #288

Originally posted by ericlimon:

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by ericlimon:

Originally posted by RonB:
[quote=ericlimon]If you believe the bible, which you obviously do, then god is a man.

And if you believe what you just stated, then you must believe that a mirror is also a man, since you can see your image in it. :)

RonB, that is about the silliest thing you have ever writen. When was the last time you refered to the mirror as "Him"?

Thanks for answering the second question honestly, There seems to be several people (not you) who keep preaching about gays and god. (It's evil and against gods will) And even IF it is against Gods will, the bible still clearly states that the most important thing is love of god and neighbor (not the actual quote, but you get my drift). Besides, God created everything and is in everything, right? So that means god made people gay, and they should be loved and respected and treated equally since they are gods creations. I'm asking you (not attacking for an answer) because you seem to be a God fearing person, and know a bit about your religion. I'm arming myself against those people who seem to think gay people are evil and what they do is against gods will. (which it isn't since "god" created them)

Your last sentence is the hingepin:
1) I don't think that gay people, as a class, are evil.
2) I do think that what they do is against, or contrary to, God's will. To be clear, I think that fornication and adultery are also contrary to God's will. Christ says that I should love my neighbor, not that I should approve of or condone everything he/she does.

Originally posted by ericlimon:

P.S. you still haven't answered the mirror question. Which I'm sure I already know the answer :D

??? Are you referring to the question "When was the last time you referred to the mirror as "Him"?" If so, it was probably last week, when I looked in the mirror and said ( well, OK, 'sang" ) to my wife, "Who's that handsome man in the mirror there? What mirror, where? Who could that attractive man be? Which, what, where, who? Such a handsome face, such a handsome shirt, such a handsome smile, such a handsome me!"

Message edited by author 2004-11-08 16:37:34.

11/08/2004 04:52:38 PM · #289

hahaha,
cute answer!
but you would agree then that what you actually were saying was "who is that hansome man in the mirror" and not "who is that hansome mirror?" or "he is a hansome mirror" you are taling about the reflection right? and if there is a reflection of both your wife and you....

so your telling me, that your first question that says
"And if you believe what you just stated, then you must believe that a mirror is also a man, since you can see your image in it. :)"
is unfounded, and a silly question?

Message edited by author 2004-11-08 17:05:00.

thatcloudthere

Canon EOS-1D

11/08/2004 05:07:03 PM · #290

Eric, "created in his image" seems to indicate to me that it was specifically not a clone, but a 'representation'...an 'image'.

That's how I understand it, anyway. Sort of like I'm an 'image' of my father.

Does that make sense to you?

hehe...and yes, cute answer indeed!

Message edited by author 2004-11-08 17:07:19.

11/08/2004 05:18:32 PM · #291

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

yeah, but I would call the reflection in the mirror more of a twin (although opposite), than looking like a reflection of my father.... so it's not really an image of my "father" i am seeing (maybe a few traits) but not enough to say "look! in the reflection of me in the mirror! It's my dad!!!"

That's not a very good argument.

here is the original question:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by ericlimon:
If you believe the bible, which you obviously do, then god is a man.

And if you believe what you just stated, then you must believe that a mirror is also a man, since you can see your image in it. :)

Message edited by author 2004-11-08 17:22:23.

thatcloudthere

Canon EOS-1D

11/08/2004 05:23:12 PM · #292

I'm not sure how you're coming to the conclusions that you're reaching. To me, it's clear that Moses (if it was him) didn't jot this down with the intention of saying that God is just some man who for some peculiar reason had the ability to create another man (who didn't have that same ability)...what am I missing here?

Edit: Oh, is this argument about the semantics of the argument itself? Then leave me out of it...I thought you guys were trying to figure out what the author's intention was in Genesis...

Message edited by author 2004-11-08 17:24:30.

thatcloudthere

Canon EOS-1D

11/08/2004 05:28:46 PM · #293

Duplicate from other rant:

Okay, I'm taking a one week sabbatical from TV and the internet (other than to check e-mail, so feel free to PM me...I love a healthy discussion!) starting in five minutes...so talk to you pagans later!

11/08/2004 05:29:10 PM · #294

thatcloudthere...

we are just tying up some loose strings :)
I just thought the quote from Ron was silly, and am asking him to clear it up.

here is how it started:
EriclimonIf you believe the bible, which you obviously do, then god is a man. (well, the bible says "he" "him" and "his" all the time. - the bible says god is a man

RonBAnd if you believe what you just stated, then you must believe that a mirror is also a man, since you can see your image in it. :)

Message edited by author 2004-11-08 17:29:22.

dwoolridge

11/08/2004 05:32:54 PM · #295

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by ericlimon:
I'm arming myself against those people who seem to think gay people are evil and what they do is against gods will. (which it isn't since "god" created them)

Your last sentence is the hingepin:
1) I don't think that gay people, as a class, are evil.
2) I do think that what they do is against, or contrary to, God's will. To be clear, I think that fornication and adultery are also contrary to God's will. Christ says that I should love my neighbor, not that I should approve of or condone everything he/she does.

I'll sort of reiterate what I wrote earlier, which is that while (in your particular case) the Bible provides you guidance, it should not be used to judge others, creating impediments for others' spiritual endeavours. Surely it is severely presumptuous to know how anyone will be judged come Judgement Day: worry only about your own spiritual path and let everyone else worry about theirs.

How does gay marriage fit into my world view? When two people who love each other (this is my presumption on why people get married) want their union recognized by the law, by the government, and/or by their church/God/insert-other-spiritual-entity-here, we should all celebrate that. It's the civilized thing to do.

frychikn

Olympus C-5050Z

11/08/2004 07:48:11 PM · #296

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by frychikn:

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
We know that everything we are made of (Oxygen, Sulfur, Iron, etc.) was formed inside a previous star which then went nova, and the detritus of which combined with the remains of other dead stars to form our Solar system and ourselves. Seems like that's enough time for a starfaring race to have evolved somewhere ...

Just how do we "know" this? I don't think "we" do - "know" it, that is.

I am not one of the "we" you refer to as "knowing" that which you state. I think that some people just "accept" what you stated on "faith" because the "scientists" said so. And the scientist can't "prove" it.

What is so different in you having "faith" in science, and me having "faith" in God? Neither one of us can "prove" their theories to the other.

The most important difference, as far as I'm concerned, is that no scientist has ever threatened me with being tortured forever after I die if I don't agree with their theory. Also, I don't recall reading in any history books or newspapers such things as people being stretched on racks or burned at the stake for refusing to believe the theory of relativity. I have not seen any documented cases of such things as long bloody wars between the 'big-bangers' and the 'steady-staters'.

I'm sorry if some religion has threatened you with eternal death. That should have been stated as a simple reality according to their understanding, and not a threat. And if you don't agree with their theory, then, even if it were a threat, it would be meaningless anyway, wouldn't it? So what's the big deal? Furthermore, if you consider that as a threat, then you must also consider that the scientists have threatened you with . . . . . . . .
. . . well, nothingness, for forever, after you die - that is, if you believe their theory.

I don't know of anyone who has been tortured over the theory of relativity either. Though I did hear that, in the not too distant past, many were tortured and killed for believing in the genetic equality of the races.

Surely, there have been wars rooted in religios fanaticism, but there have also been wars rooted in non-religious causes - for land, for love, for power, for no other reason than that one hates ones neighbors. Tribal wars, gang wars, drug wars, etc. Religion holds no corner on the market of war.

Do you also fear your neighbor? The countries that border your country? The cliques at your town's high school?

I think that your fear of religion is irrational. Perhaps even bordering on Christophobia.

Where do you get the fear from? I don't base my beliefs on the fear of an all-powerful diety, nor do I try to scare or intimidate others into agreeing with my beliefs. I think your definition of 'irrational' is simply not agreeing with your beliefs.

11/08/2004 11:32:28 PM · #297

Originally posted by dwoolridge:

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by ericlimon:
I'm arming myself against those people who seem to think gay people are evil and what they do is against gods will. (which it isn't since "god" created them)

Your last sentence is the hingepin:
1) I don't think that gay people, as a class, are evil.
2) I do think that what they do is against, or contrary to, God's will. To be clear, I think that fornication and adultery are also contrary to God's will. Christ says that I should love my neighbor, not that I should approve of or condone everything he/she does.

I'll sort of reiterate what I wrote earlier, which is that while (in your particular case) the Bible provides you guidance, it should not be used to judge others, creating impediments for others' spiritual endeavours.

Very true, but only to a point - that being that, according to the Bible, believers should not judge those outside the faith ( i.e. non-believers ), but should judge those within the faith ( believers ). The Apostle Pauld says in the Bible, in 1 Corinthians 5 verses 9-13 ( NIV ):
"I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people -- not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
Hence a believer should not judge a gay non-believer, but should judge a gay man who professes to be a believer.

Originally posted by dwoolridge:

Surely it is severely presumptuous to know how anyone will be judged come Judgement Day:

Not really ( for believers, that is ). The Bible is quite clear about how not just anyone, but everyone will be judged. And the judgement is quite simple - is your name inscribed in the book of the Lamb or not?
If it is, you enter into the kingdom of heaven; if not, then you are banished.

Originally posted by dwoolridge:

worry only about your own spiritual path and let everyone else worry about theirs.

Believers believe that it is wrong to love someone to death. They, instead feel compelled to love others from death - eternal death, that is.

Originally posted by dwoolridge:

How does gay marriage fit into my world view? When two people who love each other (this is my presumption on why people get married) want their union recognized by the law, by the government, and/or by their church/God/insert-other-spiritual-entity-here, we should all celebrate that. It's the civilized thing to do.

Christians should not be expected to celebrate that which is contrary to God's will.
And true Christians are not civilized. Jesus says in the Bible ( John 15:19 ), "If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.". Believers may be IN the world, but they are not OF the world. That being said, Believers are instructed to obey the laws of the land unless the law imposes upon them that which is contrary to God's will. For example: Roe vs. Wade permits abortion, but does not require abortion - so it does not impose itself upon a believer - unless the believer happens to be a gynecologist and the law attempts to force him/her to actually conduct an abortion - then he/she must refuse - unless it it medically necessary to save the life of the mother.

Message edited by author 2004-11-08 23:33:45.

11/09/2004 12:02:01 AM · #298

Originally posted by ericlimon:

OK. Let's go back to your original charge. You infer that God is a Man because Genesis 1:27 says, "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
Fine. The Greek word translated "man" in that text is "'Adam" ( surprised? ) which really means something more akin to mankind or person. Later, Genesis 2:23 says, "And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." In that text, the Greek word translated "Man" is 'IYSH, meaning a male person specifically. Note that in the second text the word Adam, is, surprisingly, in the Greek, 'Adam. So the text could have been translated "And Man said, This is not bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."
Finally, the ancient Greek texts do not even contain the words He, Him, His - they are inserted by the translators to maintain readability. For that matter, the Greek word translated "God" is Elohiym, a plural for the word Elowahh, the singlular word for god. ( FYI, the Elohim is/are God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit ).

Message edited by author 2004-11-09 00:02:24.