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06/22/2004 12:07:01 PM · #126 |
Originally posted by doctornick:
Glacierwolf can dish it out but he can't take criticism. See e301's comment on his picture. I don't mind his comments, but when you make harsh comments like this you better be able to accept them too instead of lashing out. |
And all the comments are marked as" helpful",33 years of arrogance I would say.
I know a guy who does "proffesional weddings" and B/W for 25 years.
When I saw the samples made me vomit :-)
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06/22/2004 12:15:23 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by pitsaman:
And all the comments are marked as" helpful",33 years of arrogance I would say.
I know a guy who does "proffesional weddings" and B/W for 25 years.
When I saw the samples made me vomit :-) |
Least you have that tact thing down pat ;)
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06/22/2004 12:20:12 PM · #128 |
| Some people may be put off of commenting by threads like this one but others are inspired to comment more and to make their comments more thoughtful. Maybe the tradeoff is, on the whole, a plus for the community if the ones who are put off are the ones who leave the rude and condescending comments that don't do much good, the ones who can't be bothered with making the effort to be use "tactful(ish) phrasing". |
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06/22/2004 12:34:47 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Some people may be put off of commenting by threads like this one but others are inspired to comment more and to make their comments more thoughtful. Maybe the tradeoff is, on the whole, a plus for the community if the ones who are put off are the ones who leave the rude and condescending comments that don't do much good, the ones who can't be bothered with making the effort to be use "tactful(ish) phrasing". |
Hope you are right Harvey...after all,what`s so hard about being truthful but fair without the sarcasm ? |
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06/22/2004 12:55:09 PM · #130 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
The basic advice is sound. It's a shame you didn't post it BEFORE the Challange started, so more people would be able to take advantage of the tips, and there wouldn't be any reason for harsh criticism. |
I totally agree with scalvert's post mortem analysis. I for one, learned a lot from Glacierwolf's observations and tips ... and also the wry funny sarcastic way he wrote it. I find it kind of refreshing to read harsh criticisms with a lot of impact. Sometimes we need controversy to jolt us out of our doldrums. |
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06/22/2004 01:05:36 PM · #131 |
| I must say that when I first read his comment on my image, I was, "upset". But the more I thought about the constructive parts, I could see what he was saying(I thought about it before I saw this thread if that makes a difference). In any case, there was some good advice hidden in the put downs. If he were to give just the advice I wouldn't have got "upset" in the first place. But his advice was still weel taken in the end. |
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06/22/2004 01:08:23 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by flip89:
[quote=scalvert] The basic advice is sound. It's a shame you didn't post it BEFORE the Challange started, so more people would be able to take advantage of the tips, and there wouldn't be any reason for harsh criticism. |
But he did - he even wrote a tutorial and commented on some "test shots". |
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06/22/2004 01:09:34 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I find I've basically stopped providing comments - simply because giving them anonymously is impossible to do in any meaningful sense. I spend a lot of time commenting on photos at a club I attend and having long, interesting discussions about technique, composition and particular shots. The distinction is that I can phrase comments and discussion to suit the person they are being given to. Also, it is a dialog and not a single throw-away statement without feedback or discussion. |
Given the way the photo page is constructed, it should be possible to have some kind of back-and-forth dialog once the challenge is over, using the duscussion thread associated with the photo.
You can quote each other, paste links, and have all the other advantages of an on-line "discussion," along with the (sometimes)disadvantageous time delay.
Personally, one of my favorite pages here is to use the Photos>Browse menu link, which takes you to a page of the photos with the most recent comments. I like to see what others have been saying after the voting's over, and although it's most often just congrats, it's also common to see some really useful comments made, once the "context" of the picture (name of photographer and processing steps) is known. |
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06/22/2004 01:13:56 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by geewhy:
...after all,what`s so hard about being truthful but fair without the sarcasm ? |
It's much more boring (and difficult) to write. I think sarcasm helps provide an emotional release for the writer, so if one's dealing with negative things (photo criticisms) it helps "purge" the negativity from one's system. |
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06/22/2004 01:14:03 PM · #135 |
Every comment I leave says something bad really. Out of all the comments I've left, I've received 3 hate mails. All from the same person, on different photos. He contacted me during the challenge to tell me that my comments were all wrong. The image really was in focus and not grainy and the border really looked cool. (I had said that it was out of focus and grainy and the border was way distracting). How can I be wrong on my opinion of the image?? I responded with "thanks for your comments, but this is what I see, and still feel that way". He's since added me to his favorites, so must not have been too much harm done. I'm sure most of you have gotten 'bad' comments from me. However, being one that does leave a lot of 'bad' comments, I will say that there is a HUGE difference in 'bad' and 'rude'. You really CAN say that a photo is horrible, without saying 'Don't quit your day job'. You know? Fine, say that the photo is horrible, but don't add insult to injury.
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06/22/2004 01:19:46 PM · #136 |
| Growth may sometimes include pain and it can make us more thick skinned and stronger because of it. It's the way life is sometimes and it's best to take with a grain of salt. Keep the "kernal and throw away the chaff." |
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06/22/2004 01:42:47 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by geewhy:
...after all,what`s so hard about being truthful but fair without the sarcasm ? |
It's much more boring (and difficult) to write. I think sarcasm helps provide an emotional release for the writer, so if one's dealing with negative things (photo criticisms) it helps "purge" the negativity from one's system. |
Sadly, I think this is true, rather than take the time and effort to be constructive..it is so much easier for some to apply sarcasm..thankfully, they would appear to be in the minority. |
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06/22/2004 01:45:20 PM · #138 |
Maybe this will allow everbuddy to relax a wee bit and lighten up a little:
It is blatantly obvious to me what's up with GW, he is like just totally "copy-catting" that judge guy on the tv show, 'American Idol'.(you know, the mean one that always is bantering with Paula)It worked great for him, he recieved fame and all kinds of attention, and it seems to be working for Glacierwolf also!
one question - who is going to do Paula's part ? ;-)
ps. mean people suk !!!
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06/22/2004 01:49:37 PM · #139 |
That's what we need! DPC Idol! Hmmm, GW as Simon, Lauriblack as Paula, and who for Randy?
Clara
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06/22/2004 01:50:52 PM · #140 |
| At least he's going around commenting ... and it's my ONLY comment so far. He points out specifically what he finds wrong with the photo -- can't get much more "helpful" than that, however it's phrased ... still if one is going to be insulting in one's writing, a little creativity and variety is always appreciated -- the audience soon tires of the same stale "witticisms" repeated ad nauseum ... |
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06/22/2004 02:10:34 PM · #141 |
Originally posted by blemt:
That's what we need! DPC Idol! Hmmm, GW as Simon, Lauriblack as Paula, and who for Randy? |
Yo dude that was dope!
Ugh, probably the worst impression ever!
fwiw, Simon Cowell was reluctant to do American Idol because he knew that he would be slated for not sugar coating his comments and telling everybody how great they were. How many potential commenters feel the same?
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06/22/2004 02:32:02 PM · #142 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Given the way the photo page is constructed, it should be possible to have some kind of back-and-forth dialog once the challenge is over, using the duscussion thread associated with the photo.
You can quote each other, paste links, and have all the other advantages of an on-line "discussion," along with the (sometimes)disadvantageous time delay.
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Ever see that happen ? It usually ends up with the original commentor starting a thread berating the photographer for daring to question the comment that they got. I'd love it if it happened successfully more often. I wonder what could be done to nurture that.
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06/22/2004 02:32:50 PM · #143 |
| You don't have to tell people they are "great" to constructively criticize them...you can tactfully point out the flaws and express to them how to correct their errors without saying "You're a total moron for even trying". JMO ;) |
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06/22/2004 02:37:32 PM · #144 |
Originally posted by bod:
fwiw, Simon Cowell was reluctant to do American Idol because he knew that he would be slated for not sugar coating his comments and telling everybody how great they were. How many potential commenters feel the same? |
At least two, EddyG and Gordon; but apparently not Glacierwolf, LOL. |
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06/22/2004 02:52:17 PM · #145 |
As I have told many others around me; if you do not like something, feel free to speak your mind -- attack what you feel is wrong, but not the person responsible for it.
It has been said in many ways that what we do is a reflection of who we are, but it is an imperfect reflection. And in the case of the many, such as myself, who have much to learn, it can be an extremely imperfect reflection.
GW does not seem to consider this, and freely attacks the creator and creation as if they were one and the same. Perhaps, that is an imperfect reflection of him; perhaps he is still learning to communicate effectively. This thread became a lynching when others, apparently at the same point in the effective communication learning curve, began attacking GW and his comments as if they were one and the same.
Attack what you dislike, and never stop attacking; but before you begin put some thought into what you want to accomplish by the attack, and then target the attack on that objective. Attack what is disliked, not its source. In all likelihood, it is an imperfect representation of the source and with a bit of thought could be corrected.
As far as negative comments are concerned; I suppose I am what some here would call thick-skinned. But that is only because I make an effort to not immediately identify the comment with the commenter. As has been said before, it is just one opionion. So feel free to leave all the negative comments you like on my photos, please! ;) I do not have an entry in the current challenges (where has all my free time gone?), but I would have no problem at all with being singled out as the singled out in a forum thread -- even if it was for being the single worst image in the challenge.
I have to stop typing now as I have to get to work. :(
David
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06/22/2004 02:58:33 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
... still if one is going to be insulting in one's writing, a little creativity and variety is always appreciated -- the audience soon tires of the same stale "witticisms" repeated ad nauseum ... |
Actually, I admit I've read some rude comments (not from glacierwolf--- his 'what were you thinking?' already has the annoying ring of 'where's the beef?") that are very sarcastic and pretty hilarious. I'm in email contact with the person I'm referring to and he is very passionate about photography and he is a fine artist as well. His comments for the photos he likes can also be quite funny. He also will be consructive in his criticism but he has pissed a lot of people off, to be sure. The difference with his comments is they are generally dead-on and original so it is hard not to laugh even if you feel bad for the photographer who has to read it. I couldn't do it but I get a guilty pleasure when I see someone voicing what I would say if I had no care for what people think of me. Don't we all secretly long to be the kid who points out the emperor has no clothes?
I can spend hours reading comments left by other members. Sometimes, I'm edified, sometimes I just laugh.
Most of us have sarcastic comments at the tip of our fingers when we go through the challenges but the difference is we usually refrain from actually typing them. I talk to the pictures as I'm voting and make my rude comments out loud to release the tension.
I can see a mentor, art editor, professor, etc, thoughtfully asking, "What were you thinking when you did this?" or "What was going through your mind?" but glacierwolf's delivery doesn't have the flavor of the classroom.
I don't understand why a few people on this thread can't seem to see the gray area between sugar-coating one's comments and being outright obnoxious. Things aren't so black and white as that. I find it odd that they can't accept that there is a difference between constructive criticism that may or may not contain some negative comments, and outright rudeness. I haven't read the types of comments they have left but now I am curious.
There is no law that says we must comment on every photo in the challenge. Save your comments for after the voting, perhaps, and pick a few pictures you feel could really benefit and leave a thoughtful comment. The following week, pick photos by different members so you spread it around some.
I have no problem leaving comments with negative opinions and I generally don't receive flak for them. I can think of only 1 occasion where the person was rude and attacked me personally in a PM.
Here are some negative comments that aren't insulting or sugar-coated:
"This composition doesn't seem well thought out" or "carefully considered"
"This subject (the way it's framed, represented, etc) doesn't appeal to me..." and try to give at least one reason why.. "I just don't like it" isn't really helpful.
"I find this subject distasteful, offensive, insensitive."
"I find that this approach makes....look rather creepy, goofy, silly, unattractive, bland, etc."
"This shot is very cluttered..." and then point out what you mean by this...
"This seems too dark...too light...too glaring" whatever...the point is you are using the word 'seems' which indicates that is how you see it but you are not outright saying, "This is too dark...too light...", etc.
Remember, this approach also works for the 'nice shot' commenters. When I read this kind of comment I can't help but draw an analogy to comments made by bands sharing the billing at a club. A common phrase heard after a set is, "You guys are tight." It is a neutral, almost meaningless comment to make when you didn't really like the set or just didn't pay attention.
I'm not suggesting this is what commenters mean when they say 'Nice shot" but it has the same effect to me. I'm not sure if I've actually gotten this kind of comment. I have gotten 'nice shot' but usually there is some other opinion expressed as well. If you truly think it is a nice shot then mention something you particularly like. If you are just trying to be nice and you don't really think it's a nice shot then you are doing the photographer a disservice. We are not in this to collect comments. We want honest feedback that is carefully considered. |
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06/22/2004 03:01:24 PM · #147 |
Good point David. In this challenge I got only 5 comments and they are all positive and yet I'm only at 5.6. So please please leave me some Negative comments so I can improve! LOL
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06/22/2004 03:08:06 PM · #148 |
I think I was a guilty party, in that I had backed off some of the good, constructive comments I really felt I could make and be helpful, because there seemed to be so much emotion running high. But this week, I have tested the waters again, and have made an effort to take that chance and hopefully I am tactful. I have gotten some very positive feedback and this is really what I want most out of DPC. Thank you to all who have had the guts or insight to hit me with some good strong comments -- I have really valued them and never take offense. If someone is rude, I just ignore them. If I don't agree, then fine, I still have heard another take on things. But usually, it is just plain good advice. Thanks, and I will shut up now!!
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06/22/2004 03:17:20 PM · #149 |
I am ticked pink to see over 144+ replies and 3,336+ views in less than 12 hours of my post. Shows people are reading and thinking.
However, the "Gotta enter every challenge even if my picture is poop" mentality still thrives here - especially after reading replies from people that seem to feel the #of Challenges = How good you are. Hint: When you surf my full name on the internet - you find my photos! Hmmm..... what do I find when I surf your name?
To appease the nah sayers - I will load a few other pictures of mine to this web site........ check out my various portfolios in a few days.
For those of you who want to know how good my picture in this challenge is - and it's doing quite nice, thank-you...... Why does it's place or number matter? That I learned a new technique, posted a how to do it, and spent three days giving it my best shot is enough. Where was your effort?
In the future - if you want to avoid sarcastic comments from me - don't waste my time voting on your poorly composed material. And considering some of the poor excuses for a submission I've been forced to view the past two days - I have been *very* tactful - you have no idea what I really wanted to write. Seems very lucky for many of you I don't enter every challenge, and, I only vote or comment on challenges I have personally accomplished...... I'm in the same boat as you. I just know how to sail better.
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06/22/2004 03:22:32 PM · #150 |
Originally posted by Glacierwolf:
However, the "Gotta enter every challenge even if my picture is poop" mentality still thrives here - especially after reading replies from people that seem to feel the #of Challenges = How good you are. Hint: When you surf my full name on the internet - you find my photos! Hmmm..... what do I find when I surf your name? |
I really loved your work in 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers'
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