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05/07/2003 04:37:53 AM · #1 |
I owe you guys & gals an apology. I was out of line yesterday: the title of my message should have been different, and the comparison with other shots ... I should not have written that.
The thing is: my last experience with these kinds of "image contests" were not that good: I've been on PhotoSIG for a long time, and saw the site deteriorate little by little by the "3TU club". In the end, people got big scores because they were "part of the gang", and not because of the originality/quality/... of their image. For someone who was on SIG to learn and to get inspiration, this behavior was VERY frustrating. What fun is there in getting high scores anyway, if you KNOW that it's not because of the quality of your work?
So when I saw the big difference between my "commenters" score and the "normal" score, I kinda freaked out a little. I immediately assumed that the "SIG scenario" was repeating itself, and thought that I again "lost" a great web resource.
Anyway, sorry about yesterday.
But... having said all that... (again, this is the 2nd part of the message, the part that you're not gonna like that much, just like yesterday. LOL)
I think there's at least some of you that are a bit "out of line" too. You know what I mean. A few examples can be found in the locked thread. I'm not gonna go into details again. I just want to say this: a little more understanding, being a little more open minded, being a little less prejudgemental... it would be appreciated by a lot of us. DPC would benefit from it too... What I'm trying to say is: the "SIG scenario" may eventually pop up here. It may look different, it may originate from other causes. And it will most definitelky slip in unnoticed at the beginning. But in the end the outcome is the same. So stay aware and stay on track!
Ciao,
J.
Message edited by author 2003-05-07 04:45:50. |
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05/07/2003 04:49:43 AM · #2 |
Good of you to post that J. Of course there are 'problems' - with an open site, open voting, there will always be areas where we disagree - I have my pet hates here too, but have come to live with them now.
For all the occasional peculiarities here, I've found it a hugely educational experience: but it's important to remember that the DPC 'audience' for your work is just anyone who wants to be here, there is no 'qualification'. The judgments aren't gospel, they're just people's opinions - think about them, consider them, and if you disagree with them, reject them.
The wierd and unhelpful comments (my favourite so far recieved is 'obscure', about my Pi entry) are more than balanced out by the (sadly fewer) insightful and genuinely constructive comments, in my experience.
Above all, keep shooting!
Ed
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05/09/2003 01:44:20 PM · #3 |
It's big of you to appologize. I'm impressed. A couple thoughts on your comments:
One thing that I think prevents any PhotoSIG type of bias on this site is the annonymous nature of the challenge. Nobody has any idea who they're voting on (for the most part), so you can't get that "I'll vote for you so you vote for me" kind of stuff that happens on the SIG: "Love this picture, 3tu, now look at my pics."
Could a group of say 30 people get together and sway the votes? I suppose so, maybe a little. They couldn't cause a really crappy picture to win, but they might be able to effect a given picture up a few places. In the end, so what??? There's no money, no fame, no long term glory that comes from doing better, or even winning. You get a few congrats for a couple days, then it's on to the next contest. It's not life or death, its just a friendly little competition. So lets enjoy it, learn from it, and have fun.
If there is any potential problem looming, it's that there does seem to be some polarization on a couple of issues, such as "rules" for how people can or can't vote, what's an acceptable interpretation of a challenge description, how biases should or shouldn't influence a person's voting, etc. But the problem isn't in the opinions or the airing and debating of them, it's in the area of wanting to regulate those with opposing opinions. Disagreeing with someone on an issue (say what criteria they should use when voting) is fine - telling them how they can or can't set their own criteria - that could really shut down the creativity here. The interesting thing is I'm not sure that everyone is necessarily always in one camp or the other. I see some people arguing against each other on one issue, then supporting each other on the next. So I think we're safe for now... :-)
One last thought (and I don't mean this as an attack, just hopefully to make you think): you need to be careful about criticizing others here for "judging" you, when you were the one to start the judgement. But more importantly, please remember that not all debate is judgement, and not all judgement is bad. If you want to start a conversation or debate on something, especially something as passionate as voting is around here, then be ready to defend your possition against opposing views. Don't be thin skinned when others attack or argue against your opinion. Either rebut their arguements, or learn from them (and I think you've shown you're open to that). That's all part of growing and learning, on everyones part. |
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05/09/2003 02:04:36 PM · #4 |
I can see a way to cheat, though it'd take more effort. Everyone in the 'vote club' tells each other what their picture looks like, or points the group towards a website where they posted it.
Just devil's-advocating.
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05/09/2003 02:12:36 PM · #5 |
| Another way to cheat is to complain about your score or trying to explain your photo during the voting in a way that makes your photo recognizeable. This garners some sympathy votes but also backfires with some anti whiner votes. |
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05/10/2003 01:11:33 AM · #6 |
I didn't say it was impossible, just probably not likely or effective. I won't get into the math, but there was thread a couple months ago that talked about whether people discussing their current entries in a chat room could theoretically sway the scores for the people in the chat group. Like I said, even if 30 people (which would be a pretty sizable conspiracy) all decided to vote 10 on each others photos, factored against the 200-300 other votes would only sway the score by a couple tenths of a point. Not likely to make a winner out of a poor photo. But, in theory it could put a good pic over the top. But, in the end, what's the point? If someone wants some arbitrary validation that badly, let them have it. I just hope I get some usefull feedback from the more level-headed, well adjusted folks around here...
And, yeah, discussing your pic during voting is pretty lame. I know it's tempting, especially when you get a comment that sparks some emotion - it's hard to hold it in till the challenge is through. Whether people really do it for sympathy, who knows. The same comments above apply. And, like you say, it probably is more likely to backfire than help. |
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05/10/2003 04:34:42 AM · #7 |
| This is going a tad bit off the subject, but I honestly don't care about my scores. I am more concerned with peoples comments. I think I will get a lot more out of comments than from an 8 or a 4 or whatever. If my photo gets a lot of comments then I know for some reason or another people like or dislike it enough to comment. That means more to me than placing for a ribbon. I always try to comment on a lot of photo's...I think that is more helpful than just a number. |
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05/10/2003 09:12:42 AM · #8 |
the comment reason is why i dont even tell too many friends which picture is mine.
i prefer to get their comments completely 'fresh' and un-premeditated. if they dont know it's my picture, they have an honest reaction to it.
that way, if they love it, i know they're not just yanking my chain. same if they don't. :)
To me that's worth way more than a meaningless back pat or undeserved buddy vote.
Message edited by author 2003-05-10 09:35:04.
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05/10/2003 11:26:38 AM · #9 |
apology accepted.
Jochen you wrote: "Above my pic, on the list, with a better score than me, are (to name but a few...)
-A rhino sniffing another rhino's butt "
That one was mine. I had put my money on humor with this picture, and it payed off. I also picked it because I like the texture of their skins.
I hoped to score a 6 or higher and I received a 5.996 (which is a 6 to me) so I'm quite happy with the results.
I don't know how to see the avarage vote per commenters: but those who mentioned their vote gave me a 8 two 9's and two 10's.
Some comments I liked too:
"Haha. Wow. This ought to be hung in someone's office - "Feral Kissass." Nice capture, technically good as well." -Malokata
"excellent shot and very interesting composition :) This shot has a great 'humor' factor to it as well... great work :) - setzler"
"great title and good image to boot. it was composed well and has clear and sharp colors. nice work" -thatguy
Can you please tell me why you would rate my picture lower than yours? Is it because of the title/"bad" taste of subject or is there something else you don't like?
I gave your picture an avarage score. It's technically ok but far from perfect(dof on fur, colors), but the most important thing it's notting special. I didn't made me say wow, or smile or think about anything, it's just a cat.
About photosig, they changed the rules, and only the happy few get more than 2 comments on their pictures nowadays.
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