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08/19/2005 04:15:52 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by sage:
Cut the egotistical "i'm a professional" bullsh$t and just get your shots. |
Yeah, just do your job while some idiot sits nehind you telling you how you are doing everything wrong, exactly how they would do it and then reaching over your shoulder trying to do it themselves and screwing it up for everyone.
That's not ego.
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08/19/2005 04:19:45 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
For sure...the photographer is there to get the safe shots. The formals and the 'key moments'.Be there and get those moments and angles that the photographer won't go for because he can't afford the risk. |
The move has been evident in wedding photography from traditional to photojournalistic - which most definetly includes candid moments and the small details and taking 'risks'...I don't do 'boring'
Again, if there was someone else at an event i was paid to be at and they were out with their big gear shooting 'my' stuff I'd be irked to no end. Anyone trying to capture the work I set up from a different angle is completely unacceptable. At any shoot, wedding or no.
Message edited by author 2005-08-19 16:22:12. |
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08/19/2005 04:21:51 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by sage:
Cut the egotistical "i'm a professional" bullsh$t and just get your shots. |
Yeah, just do your job while some idiot sits nehind you telling you how you are doing everything wrong, exactly how they would do it and then reaching over your shoulder trying to do it themselves and screwing it up for everyone.
That's not ego. |
My resposes were not to people reaching across the photographers shoulder or interfering with his shots. They were merely someone else taking pictures at the same time.
There is a line that can be crossed in every situation. But the examples that were given when I responded were not situations in which the line was crossed.
For example, iff you were taking photos and the bride's mother comes up to you and suggests another pose or another angle... what are you going to do? Your going to take the damn photo the way she wants it taken because chances are... she is paying you.
A relative suggesting a pose or requesting a shot might be viewed as a nuisance by the photographer, but that person is just trying to be helpful... there is no need to be a jackass towards that person.
Message edited by author 2005-08-19 16:24:16. |
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08/19/2005 04:24:37 PM · #29 |
this summer I was fortunate enough to attend the weddings of two of my closest friends (two weddings).
At the first ceremony, a civil service in a castle the photographer was roaming and taking flash shots, I was late so I was at the back and, knowing my shots would be horrendous under such circumstances, I didn't take any and just enjoyed the service. Outside, after the service, the photographer gathered groups and took a few shots of each with his medium format whilst I snapped away to one side, I was a good 6 feet to one side of him so most of my shots they weren't looking directly at the camera but where I came into my own was during the set up of shots, I was able to capture the informal shots, the bride and groom laughing as their family rearranged themselves, the children being restrained for each shot etc. It was good light so pretty much 90% of my shots were well exposed focussed etc but of course many were of peple blinking or looking away.
At that stage, the photgrapher packed up his gear and was off, but I was able to plan ahead (i know the venue well) and was able to position myself on a wall by the gatehouse to capture the b&g leaving in the bridal car (a 1920s open top), in fact tey were probaly my best shots of the day.
The second wedding, a few weeks later was a church affair, I took the effort to ask about flashes ad was told to please not use flashes, so I didn't, the few shots I took suffered from darkness and blurriness, oh well thats life. THe photographer being more skilled had his big lens and seemed to be fine, in fact at one time he was sat on the floor, braced against a pew shooting down the aisle at the service. Unfortunately plenty of people were using flashes on little point and shoots, and even on mobile phone cams, the photgrapher looked mildly annoyed but just got on with it.
The group shots were outside again so I was confident I could get plenty of good shots withoout worrying about exposure or annoying him with the flash, a small bank to one side was ideal, and after I'd been there for a few minutes everyone else with their own cameras joined me well out of the way of the pro. Once again, the best shots came when the photographer left, at the reception afterwards and later at the beach where the bride and groom wanted all their friends to join them for a surf, I was the only one with a halfway decent camera so I got some pretty unique shots.
For both weddings I gave the families a CD of images, mostly unedited but a much appreciated bonus to their paid for pics, in fact I think some of mine were even better than their paid for pics because I wasn't so focussed on the set pieces.
Not sure there was a point to this!! but just though I'd share my experience, as I guest I'd be pretty pissed if a pro was too full of themselves, but then again, if I were messing up their shots I'd expect them to atleast ask me to stop!! Unless you're shooting with an exclusive contract, and "Hello" security have confiscated all other cameras, you're gonna have to put up with enthusiastic amateurs |
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08/19/2005 04:30:29 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Anyone trying to capture the work I set up from a different angle is completely unacceptable. At any shoot, wedding or no. |
Not sure what to say about this, I think its a bit harsh to claim we're stealing your shots that "you setup", as far as I'm concerned, I've known the bride through good times and bad for 10 years, I'm not just posing for you, I've earned my place with my friends, you as the pro might be the conductor but your willing models aren't included in your contract, if you want exclusivity of us, maybe you should pay us from your fees.
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08/19/2005 04:41:33 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by sage:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by sage:
Cut the egotistical "i'm a professional" bullsh$t and just get your shots. |
Yeah, just do your job while some idiot sits nehind you telling you how you are doing everything wrong, exactly how they would do it and then reaching over your shoulder trying to do it themselves and screwing it up for everyone.
That's not ego. |
My resposes were not to people reaching across the photographers shoulder or interfering with his shots. They were merely someone else taking pictures at the same time.
There is a line that can be crossed in every situation. But the examples that were given when I responded were not situations in which the line was crossed.
For example, iff you were taking photos and the bride's mother comes up to you and suggests another pose or another angle... what are you going to do? Your going to take the damn photo the way she wants it taken because chances are... she is paying you.
A relative suggesting a pose or requesting a shot might be viewed as a nuisance by the photographer, but that person is just trying to be helpful... there is no need to be a jackass towards that person. |
Someone making a suggestion about a pose or another group is one thing and is certainly welcome to a degree. You can't shoot every possible combination of relatives with the B&G during the formal session, eventually, the B&G will get so tired of smiling their faces will hurt and they do have to get to the reception.
What this thread has digressed to is a discussion of what to do about "Uncle Mike" with his new camera who intentionally shoots over the pro's shoulder and hinders the photographer in fulfilling his contractual obligations to the B&G. Or, worse, steps in front of the photographer right before he's about to shoot a formal pose and pops off a frame.
Or little sweet "Nephew David" who decide to practice his juggling with $3000 worth of lenses while the photographer is setting up for formals.
Don't try to tell me this crap doesn't happen, because it does, I've seen it, either as the shooter or as an assistant. Most weddings, the photos go off with no major problems, but every once in a while, there's one that makes you want to pummel someone.
I've never felt the need to physically deal with someone like this, usually a quick word to the MOB or wedding coordinator will bring down an unholy wrath upon the offender and the photographer gets to just sit and watch while "Uncle Mike" or sweet "Nephew David" get the harsh rebuke they so richly deserve.
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08/19/2005 05:01:28 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by cbonsall:
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Anyone trying to capture the work I set up from a different angle is completely unacceptable. At any shoot, wedding or no. |
Not sure what to say about this, I think its a bit harsh to claim we're stealing your shots that "you setup", as far as I'm concerned, I've known the bride through good times and bad for 10 years, I'm not just posing for you, I've earned my place with my friends, you as the pro might be the conductor but your willing models aren't included in your contract, if you want exclusivity of us, maybe you should pay us from your fees. |
Wow, mark this day in history, I agree with Goldberry on something.
If your friend, the bride, wanted you to shoot her formals, why didn't she hire you in the first place?
It's stealing the fruits of the photographer's work (posing is a skill and takes work), not to mention distracting, at the least, and prohibiting, at the worst. Since your friend is paying good money for the photographer to be there and do their job, it's OK for you to waste her money by interfering with the work of someone she hired? Is that how you treat friends?
As far as the rights to those images go, the copyright lies with the photographer. That does not mean they can necessarily use them as they please. If you don't like the idea of standing up with your friend and having your picture taken by someone she willingly paid to document the occasion, then maybe you should rethink your decision to be in the wedding party at all.
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08/19/2005 05:14:45 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Wow, mark this day in history, I agree with Goldberry on something.
If your friend, the bride, wanted you to shoot her formals, why didn't she hire you in the first place?
It's stealing the fruits of the photographer's work (posing is a skill and takes work), not to mention distracting, at the least, and prohibiting, at the worst. Since your friend is paying good money for the photographer to be there and do their job, it's OK for you to waste her money by interfering with the work of someone she hired? Is that how you treat friends?
As far as the rights to those images go, the copyright lies with the photographer. That does not mean they can necessarily use them as they please. If you don't like the idea of standing up with your friend and having your picture taken by someone she willingly paid to document the occasion, then maybe you should rethink your decision to be in the wedding party at all. |
Who is to say the other photographer is interfering? If they are staying out of your way, being quiet... why shouldn't he be able to take pictures if the bride and groom don't have a problem with it?
As for as copyrights to the images go, the copyright is with the image the photographer takes at the angle, exposure, etc.... not the posed scene itself.
Not to mention the fact that the copyright does not always belong to the photographer --- it depends on the contract. Many photographers are handing over all rights to the photographs in the competitive market of wedding photography... in return they are getting paid more up front and don't see as much on prints... they will hand over CD's or DVD's of the images.
I've met alot of wedding photographers over the years, and reading some of the posts is making me rethink my original view. I used to think that it was coincidence that alot of them came across as a$$holes... but now i'm beginning to think that they weren't actually a minority...
Message edited by author 2005-08-19 17:18:43. |
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08/19/2005 05:16:24 PM · #34 |
Sage - at least put the disclaimer in that you don't really like ME personally so people know why you're responding as you do.
1) Nobody "knows" I ran over the guy on purpose. Trust me, it looks like a fast moving photographer getting clumsy.
2) If Aunt Betty has a D70 and all these "wonderful" shot ideas, I DONT WANT her niece's wedding. I'm not so hard up for jobs that I'll take anything that falls into my lap.
If someone hires me to be their photographer, I'm going to do my job. However, I'm also a bit of a jerk - I'm going to run over anyone in the WAY of me doing my job. Someone snapping pics around me - not a big deal. Someone who causes CRAP results - big deal. Someone who keeps making the posed groups look away from me, someone who flashes so repetitively that my cake cutting shots get blown out - oh yeah I'm going to run them over like they aren't there. *I* am the one who's in danger of being sued if the b/g don't like my product. I'm going to CMA as much as I can.
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08/19/2005 05:19:11 PM · #35 |
thats not what I'm saying, if I'm posing with my friends, then I'm not posing exclusively for you, I have no doubt it takes skill to get people to cooperate and pose for a good shot, but I have no intention of interfering, if you as a pro get distracted by me taking pictures 6 feet away, maybe you need to reconsider your career choice. If I'm shouting "over here, over here" whilst the pro is trying to take pictures then absolutely, I'd be in the wrong.
As for copyright issues, I have no problem with that, my concern is not with what you do with them, but that by gathering us together in a certain pose you think others are stealing by taking shots of the same pose albeit from a slightly differnt position. |
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08/19/2005 05:21:19 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
Sage - at least put the disclaimer in that you don't really like ME personally so people know why you're responding as you do. |
Ironically I didn't even realize who I was replying to after I had already replied to a few of the posts.
I don't have a problem with you. I just happened to have called you out for passing off work that wasn't yours as being original. I called you out on it, it must be you that has the problem because I don't even know you. |
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08/19/2005 05:27:31 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by cbonsall:
if I'm posing with my friends, then I'm not posing exclusively for you |
If you're at the front of the church standing next to the bride who hired me during the time I am supposed to be shooting formals you are.
Originally posted by cbonsall:
if you as a pro get distracted by me taking pictures 6 feet away, maybe you need to reconsider your career choice. |
Definitely not the case in anything I said at least. I don't mind that stuff.
Originally posted by cbonsall:
by gathering us together in a certain pose you think others are stealing by taking shots of the same pose albeit from a slightly differnt position. |
I have had 15 minutes, 30 minutes and 35 minutes to do 3 weddings this year - formals time. If I'm slowed down in those 3 weddings, my job fails and I don't get all of the requested shots because it takes everyone an extra minute or two each time I put a different group in the picture. Also, I had one girl ask for sooooo many poses that even with NOBODY around it took me over 90 minutes to do all the groups. I'll tell ya - I'm not doing formals for 3 hours.
M
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08/19/2005 06:17:57 PM · #38 |
Some pro wedding shooters will have a clause that they are to be the only professional shooter there -- and have 'professional shooter' defined as anyone shooting with professional gear, which can then be up to the interpretation of the photographer.
I personally wouldn't like it...if they want a print of a shot, it's either pay me for it, or get one for free from their friend.
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The thing you have to realize when you're shooting weddings, is you're GOING TO BE OUTCLASSED...no matter what (not that you outclass this shooter with your d-rebel and your l lens) but even someone shooting with 2 20d's, and L Glass would be outclassed by a 1dsmkII and l glass in a sense...Everyone has that rich uncle or friend or brother or whatever that has nothing better to do than go out and spend some money on the latest and greatest camera and lens.
It's not the gear you have, it's how you use it and it's how you communicate with the people.
-----
Yeah, I know, I'm rambling heh...Why don't you ask the bride for the photog's number and give him a call or shoot him an email and ask what he would like or what he would or wouldn't mind? Maybe he'd be willing to toss you fifty bucks or a hundred bucks and both of your shots when getting proofs...and heck, he might teach you a thing or two while you're at it.
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08/19/2005 06:27:09 PM · #39 |
I was part of a wedding where I also took some pictures. They had a paid photographer and I mad sure he knew where I was and that I was NOT going to be taking pictures at the same time he was. Specifically so that our flashes would not interfere with each others readings. Being that I was part of the wedding he was able to get pictures I wasn't.
The main thing I was trying to take pictures of were candid shots, between his posed ones, and for shots when he wasn't there. My friends were happy enough that I had another wedding all set to shoot the same way, except I moved and wasn't in the state at the time.
I think just a little professional courtesy is nice in just saying hi to the professional and reassuring them that you don't plan on interfering with his work. Yes, I did take some of the same shots he did, but I made sure I wasn't in his way. |
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08/19/2005 06:33:19 PM · #40 |
I recently attended a friends wedding, he asked me to take candids while the pro took the formal's etc. No problems even when at the reception he gathered his family and asked me to do some group shots. You just have to be sensible, just dont get in the way. Of course I was lucky that the pro did not worry about what I was doing. At one stage I was taking some candids and he came right up close to me to get the same angle and I mean close - a bit like you see when all the pros are shooting celebs etc. Maybe he was trying to 'bond' with me!
Now I have another friend getting married next friday and after seeing the photos I took at the other wedding he has asked me to do the same thing. This might be different as the photog he has hired is charging BIG bucks. I will let you know how I get on!!
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08/19/2005 06:36:14 PM · #41 |
Seriously, you should have some professional courtesy...besides, you're getting paid squat for something this guy is getting paid big bucks for.
Like someone said before...what if your friend was going to the doctor's, and you were examining them at the same time, that really shouldn't be going on...unless you ask the photog first, and he wants you there. Think about it.
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08/19/2005 06:38:33 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Some pro wedding shooters will have a clause that they are to be the only professional shooter there -- and have 'professional shooter' defined as anyone shooting with professional gear, which can then be up to the interpretation of the photographer. |
A Professional is someone who gets paid to do a job. That is way different to someone who has professional standard equip.
I have never heard of anything like that here in the UK.
Guess I am lucky I have cheap kit!!
Message edited by author 2005-08-19 18:43:18.
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08/19/2005 06:40:58 PM · #43 |
Well, I have told the friends that wanted me to "shoot" their wedding that I was more than willing to do so, but that I was NOT comfortable shooting the "professional" shots as my camera wouldn't be anywhere as good as a professionals, and that I didn't know what I was doing. I said I'd take all sorts of candid shot, but for the posed ones they would have to hire someone.
They generally informed the professional that I was going to be there taking candids, but he/she was in charge of the posed shots. |
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08/19/2005 06:53:49 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by MikeOwens:
Originally posted by deapee:
Some pro wedding shooters will have a clause that they are to be the only professional shooter there -- and have 'professional shooter' defined as anyone shooting with professional gear, which can then be up to the interpretation of the photographer. |
A Professional is someone who gets paid to do a job. That is way different to someone who has professional standard equip.
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That's your definition of a professional...but like I said already, they have "professional shooter" defined as ANYONE SHOOTING WITH PROFESSIONAL GEAR, which can then be up to the interpretation of the photographer.
I'm not telling you my definition or wanting a debate of what a pro is, I'm just telling you what they have in their contract, and how it works.
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08/19/2005 07:08:32 PM · #45 |
Just leave you lights on slave and let them fire away.
Tim |
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08/19/2005 07:22:07 PM · #46 |
Wow, so much response in such a short time. Popular subject.
To try to reign in the thread a little. Any additional annoyances or recommendations for me, specifically, that I should avoid tomorrow? I've got a good list from Mavrik and others including:
1) Stay out of hired photographer's way, in general
2) Don't shoot next to hired photog during formal shoots, in fact, skip trying to "get in on" posed formals at all
3) Talk to the photographer and let him know I'm just going to be taking candids and have him tell me if I'm intruding
4) Talk to bride and groom and see what they think, though I won't see them until just before the ceremony. I think this could be distracting to them, so I might not bother asking. Perhaps the mother of the groom, with whom I'm very friendly.
5) Feel free to get shots the pro won't/can't take as long as they don't hinder the professional's efforts.
6) others...?
Message edited by author 2005-08-19 19:22:43. |
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08/19/2005 07:26:27 PM · #47 |
Good Grief!!
Take your gear (and definitely the lens!), have a quick "aside" with the hired photog, make sure you're on the same page, then enjoy yourself - enjoy both the wedding AND your love for your photography.
I have only done 2 weddings, but at both, there were, at a minimum, at least 10 people there with everything from a P&S to full gear like mine. Some talked to me, some did not, but no one got in my way, most were very courteous, and in this day and age of digital photography, this is the way it is going to be.
At every single event I've been paid to go to, there have been other photographers there shooting as well. You're just not going to be able to get away from this in most cases. |
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08/19/2005 07:28:54 PM · #48 |
wow, some heated debate!
I personally don't care if other people are taking photos.
Basically i tell them "i'm working, shoot all you want, just stay out of my way"
and I've never had any other shooters be rude to me, they always come up and we talk shop!
Message edited by author 2005-08-19 19:30:28.
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08/19/2005 07:35:23 PM · #49 |
My cousin recently got married and asked if I would take some pictures. She had hired a pro from a shop to do the formals.
I attended as a guest and took pictures just as asked. I was not in competition with the pro and respected his shots so as to not fire a flash while he was shooting.
I had a chance to talk to the guy and he was a very cool guy, got some tips and each went and did our own thing.
There was no "backing up fast so as to knock me over" (by the way, I am 6'3 and if someone did this beleive me when I got up they would go down for the count, jerkoff).
Anyway, my pics turned out great and were much appreciated. Now my cousin has a nice set of formal pics and some casual crowd shots, improptu shots, etc.
Its all for the love of it so lighten up and just shoot.
A true pro will not be threatened by another person shooting pics unless they are really not that good.
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08/19/2005 07:44:53 PM · #50 |
I appreciate those responses telling me to "lighten up" but, honestly, I'm putting more thought into this stuff now so I don't come off as a complete jack ass tomorrow. I will be very casual tomorrow for sure, but sometimes when I get casual (and I've had a few beers) I can do some really stupid stuff. :) Give me a rented 70-200 and WATCH OUT!!!
I know when I need help and I've asked for it. Most of you have helped. Thanks guys. DPC's forums are a god-send. |
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