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11/17/2005 05:41:06 PM · #26 |
Same here with Robs. I try to vote on all the challenges, even if I have not entered.
I think this is simply a matter of some people voting lower than others.
I find the mjority of the pics in my voting bucket sit at 5 and above all of the time. I have an above 5 average vote because of that.
Find the people that have a below 5 average, and you find the reason for low voting patterns, it's that simple. It's thier vote, and we can't really do naught but complain.
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11/17/2005 05:48:28 PM · #27 |
I wonder if it would be better if we weren't able to see our score for an entry until voting is over?
I just try to be consistant on my scoring. I give very very few 10's and I might have given a 1 once, but most of the time I hover between 4 and 7 and then reward great photos with 8's and 9's and then the perfect ones with a 10. |
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11/17/2005 05:59:57 PM · #28 |
| I'm not sure the score on my entry has an effect on my voting. I don't think I vote higher on the challenge I didn't enter, but it might be an interesting statistic. I do think to myself someimes, "others are not afraid to give a 1 or 2 and no comment, so I can too". I do still try to leave comments, but it is disheartening when I receive so few. |
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11/17/2005 06:05:47 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
Find the people that have a below 5 average, and you find the reason for low voting patterns, it's that simple. It's thier vote, and we can't really do naught but complain. |
My "average" is just below 5 but that is partly due to me voting lower anything that is OBVIOUSLY outside the challenge constraints - sunset in artifical light challenges spring to mind:). Sorry folks but I have been consistent and I see that written in the rules:). My real average on legit (IMO I guess) photos is probably 5-7 if I had to guess. I would expect that is where most peoples is since you need a few spaces for the really good photos. |
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11/17/2005 06:06:25 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
I do still try to leave comments, but it is disheartening when I receive so few. |
I think most of us understand this. It seems like we don't even mind the low scoring as long as we get some sort of comment on our entry, and I know how good it feels to get a comment, even if I don't necessarily agree with the comment...so I decided that I would leave comments whenever I could on an entry. Of course it's time consuming, but on the garbage entry, I believe that I managed to get to roughly 45% to 55% of the entries. So if I didn't catch you this time, hopefully I'll get to leave one on yours eventually. :) |
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11/17/2005 06:08:35 PM · #31 |
I decided to only vote on the challenges I don't enter and not vote on those I do. In any case, my average vote is 5.5 on three challeges I entered when the overall vote was about 5.1, so I'm voting high, not low.
Anyway, the problem could be easily fixed by locking out voting on any challenge entered or by changing the system so that one votes for (say) the top ten. |
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11/17/2005 06:09:29 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by phatphoto:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
I do still try to leave comments, but it is disheartening when I receive so few. |
I think most of us understand this. It seems like we don't even mind the low scoring as long as we get some sort of comment on our entry, and I know how good it feels to get a comment, even if I don't necessarily agree with the comment...so I decided that I would leave comments whenever I could on an entry. Of course it's time consuming, but on the garbage entry, I believe that I managed to get to roughly 45% to 55% of the entries. So if I didn't catch you this time, hopefully I'll get to leave one on yours eventually. :) |
I think people tend to comment on the high and low rather than the middle where most people are. If you are aiming to comment maybe the more effective method is to ensure you comment on photos in each of your buckets - comment on some 10,9,8,7 e.t.c. rather than some percentage. Just a suggestion. |
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11/17/2005 06:13:58 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
I'm not sure the score on my entry has an effect on my voting. |
It certainly doesn't affect my voting. I have no reservations about handing out 9 and 10 scores in a challenge I've entered no matter where my score is at, and that hasn't changed since my first entry. I think I gave out 3 or 4 tens in the Dead End challenge. There have been a couple of instances where I voted high on a shot that finished above me, and my vote was enough to place it there. So what? I gave the image what I thought it deserved, and if that means beating me, then congrats to the victor- he deserved it (or she... it's usually Heida).
If the midpoint between 1 and 10 is 5.5, then my 5.46 average vote given seems about right to me. For anyone voting low because of their own score or suspicion of DQ, please call me... I still need a shot for the Cheater! challenge. ;-) |
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11/17/2005 06:23:17 PM · #34 |
When my average score given dropped below 5, I stopped voting and participating for awhile . I just joined back in with a current challenge. I'm still seeing many, many shots overprocessed. Too color- saturated or over-sharpened, etc, etc. I know the trend has shifted and these "looks" are more preferred by the majority, it's just not what I see as excellent photography. My highs are only 7's and the lows I'm giving are 3's. But, I am giving the 7's to as many that deserve it.
My theory is that many people only pick three as their high scorers. They score it like they are the only judge.
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11/17/2005 06:40:40 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
... Why are the best photographers on the site average score only around 6 ?
Why do only a handful of shots end up with a score over 7 in each challenge ?
Why does on a whole the voters on this site vote so low ? ... |
On the whole we don't vote low -- but the voting system we have does make it appear that way. The results here are a direct comparison of the unmodified average of the votes received, and that brings with it a force pulling the scores toward the middle of the voting scale.
This can be demonstrated easily with dice. Roll a single die and the chance is the same of it being any of the numbers, but roll it again and the average is pulled toward the middle a little. The more rolls made, the greater the force pulling the average toward the middle. Roll enough dice, and the average becomes the middle of the range.
Of course, voting at DPC is not completely random -- there is some thought put into it. But, from the differences in skill level (or the tolerance of the difference) to the impact of the subject will have, the next vote may as well be random.
Fortunately there is another force at work here as well, or we would all have 5.5's and nothing else. The impact of the image works to push the average away from the middle -- in either direction, depending how it is received. The greater the favorable impact it has on the voters as a whole, the greater the force pushing the average away from the middle.
The most interesting observation I make from this is as the site becomes larger and larger, the skill needed to score really high gets harder and harder. This is easily seen from personal experiences that most of us have had from time to time -- it is always easier to shine in a small group, but to stand out in a large group requires much more.
Two forces, one pulling toward the middle and the other pushing outward away from it, resulting in everyone being packed in tighter and tighter toward the middle as the site grows. The only way to combat this is to implement some from of weighting to the computation of the average. While the method zxaar suggested earlier is one method, it has a number of liabilities -- first of which is the choosing judges. The karma system suggested several times in the past takes care of the above without liability, provided it is implemented with positives as well as negatives.
David
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11/17/2005 06:52:37 PM · #36 |
I don't know if I am really wrong here but I will tell you how I vote:
1 - Doesn't meet the challenge
2..4 - Meets ok
5 - Good one
6 - Really good
7 - Top 20
8 - Top 10
9..10 - Please a Ribbon for this photo.
I have found that photos usually tend to be on the 2 - 5 bracket... perhaps Im one of those that you all hate but I do this based on one thing: Winner is 7!... so I find absolutely no reason to 7 a guy that doesnt seem like a winner to me. In other words, my voting system reflects reality and winners average. If winners had an average of 9 I would certaintly change my voting system having a wider choice for 'non winners'.
What do you think? Am I absolutely lost?
Patrinus |
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11/17/2005 07:10:49 PM · #37 |
Sounds about right to me, and as long as it applied consistently then it all works out.
Originally posted by patrinus:
I don't know if I am really wrong here but I will tell you how I vote:
1 - Doesn't meet the challenge
2..4 - Meets ok
5 - Good one
6 - Really good
7 - Top 20
8 - Top 10
9..10 - Please a Ribbon for this photo.
I have found that photos usually tend to be on the 2 - 5 bracket... perhaps Im one of those that you all hate but I do this based on one thing: Winner is 7!... so I find absolutely no reason to 7 a guy that doesnt seem like a winner to me. In other words, my voting system reflects reality and winners average. If winners had an average of 9 I would certaintly change my voting system having a wider choice for 'non winners'.
What do you think? Am I absolutely lost?
Patrinus |
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11/17/2005 07:15:55 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by patrinus:
I don't know if I am really wrong here but I will tell you how I vote:
1 - Doesn't meet the challenge
2..4 - Meets ok
5 - Good one
6 - Really good
7 - Top 20
8 - Top 10
9..10 - Please a Ribbon for this photo.
I have found that photos usually tend to be on the 2 - 5 bracket... perhaps Im one of those that you all hate but I do this based on one thing: Winner is 7!... so I find absolutely no reason to 7 a guy that doesnt seem like a winner to me. In other words, my voting system reflects reality and winners average. If winners had an average of 9 I would certaintly change my voting system having a wider choice for 'non winners'.
What do you think? Am I absolutely lost?
Patrinus |
Uh, you include no points for composition or technicals? What's with that? It's a photo contest too. Meeting the challenge is the point, but seriously, basing your voting completely on the challenge definition and DNMC is a little whacked out to me.
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11/17/2005 07:19:42 PM · #39 |
Since when did we start voting on a curve? I thought we were suppose to give photo's the votes they deserve, not the votes they deserve in the context of "well, nobody ever gets a 10, really" That's completely neurotic.
Message edited by author 2005-11-17 19:19:50.
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11/17/2005 07:21:28 PM · #40 |
Depends on what he means by Good, Really Good, etc... I kind of read into that (perhaps incorrectly) that he was including the things that you point out (Composition, Focus, Tonal Range, Noise, etc...).
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11/17/2005 07:30:04 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Depends on what he means by Good, Really Good, etc... I kind of read into that (perhaps incorrectly) that he was including the things that you point out (Composition, Focus, Tonal Range, Noise, etc...). |
I was referring directly to the DNMC=1/2, If you were including some credit for just taking a well shot frame, then there's no way you could get to 1 simply for DNMC.
I reserve 1's for people that look like they took any old picture that is completely out of focus, very badly lit, motion blurred w/o purpose, horrid composition, AND DNMC. Its a combination of photography skill and meeting a challenge, and I think votes should reflect both.
He asked whether he was lost, I think he is. That's my opinion.
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11/17/2005 07:36:55 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
I was referring directly to the DNMC=1/2, If you were including some credit for just taking a well shot frame, then there's no way you could get to 1 simply for DNMC. |
I agree with your principle overall, but I disagree with not ever giving a 1 for DNMC. If the image is blatantly being tossed into a challenge that doesn't come remotely close to the challenge theme then I'd give it a 1. Part of the challenge is to capture something that fits the theme, even remotely. Sometimes people do try to skirt that rule and submit just about anything.
I know this has been tossed about before so maybe we need the dead horse beater...
JMO.
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11/17/2005 07:37:00 PM · #43 |
| I rate each photo individually, simply as a photo, on a scale from one to ten (taking into account meeting the challenge, so a black square would be a 1 and a perfect photo would be a 10. I don't rank photos compared to the other photos in a challenge. Therefor, what I consider the best photo in a challenge, is not necisarily a 10. I've always felt that was the fairest way to do it. |
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11/17/2005 07:38:24 PM · #44 |
I'm not trying to post and run here, but I have some family plans this evening that I need to attend to...try not to flame my last post TOO bad. ;^)
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11/17/2005 07:43:06 PM · #45 |
personally, I think it is a disgrace if you give a photo that meets the challenge and is technically ok anything less than a 5. I find that in each challenge most photos deserve a 5 or more. I also find myself looking at the average vote cast when I look at peoples profiles and I cannot help myself but think poorly of people that have a 3.4 average vote cast(as an example). There is no excuse for average votes cast being that low in my opinion. This is a learning site and I can think of nothing more devestating for a new photographer than getting hammered by the voters when they have "given it their all". Just because something does not meet the challenge "in your opinion" does not mean that the photographer was not trying to meet the challenge. Obviously, there are some that are so far out of the box that you can spend ages trying to find the connection but luckily those are few and far between. Everyone has different interpretations on challenges and to give something a 1 because it does not fit your interpretation of the challenge, I think is quite unfair.
Message edited by author 2005-11-17 19:43:50.
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11/17/2005 07:46:33 PM · #46 |
what if we totally did away with having your score visible durring voting, you had to wait until the challenge was over to see your scores, your comments, your faves, etc...
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11/17/2005 07:48:51 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by Nitin:
EddyG has proven using statisticts that voters who did not participate, on the average, score 1 point higher than voters who participated.
It is also human to score photographs that in your opinion are not better than your entry, below your current score.
The combination of the two drags average scores down. |
I think that this definately applies to me. For this reason I haven´t voted on a challenge I have participated in since early this year, I only vote on challenges I am NOT in as I always felt myself giving a lower score if I was myself in the challenge. |
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11/17/2005 07:51:20 PM · #48 |
Yes, of course I always take into account Composition, Tonal Range, etc... but I think that a MUST for each photo is meeting the challenge. I have been severly voted for not meeting the challenge sometime... (even if I try to) but I dont agree about having a perfect beautiful picture that doesn't meet the challenge with a better grade than someone who tried to really think and be creative about the challenge.
Besides I have given several 10s. I think my voting system is really fair. If you want to have a 10 from me, I should be really willing your shot to go for blue ribbon... that way at least 1 photo per challenge is getting a 10 from me, sometimes even more if I think more than one image would deserve the ribbon.
I try to vote as if I was the jury on a 'real life' photo contest. I will give my highest vote only to the winner. |
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11/17/2005 07:56:27 PM · #49 |
I am still pretty new here. I've voted on a few challenges & only entered one so far....which scored in the 4 range.
I personally vote anywhere from 5 - 10 if the photo is good, the only ones I've voted any lower on where, in my opinion, not very good. I would assume that most voters would stay in the mid range, 5 - 8, but it does seem that there are alot who tend to stay on the lower end.
Of course in the end, it is up to the voter - how they view & interpret the photo. I just don't understand why people would base their vote according to how they where being voted on. Like any work of art "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" ............ |
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11/17/2005 07:57:19 PM · #50 |
I recently stopped voting in challenges that I entered. I simply can not trust myself to be unbiased and objective.
I do not want to win so badly that I will sacrifice integrity. Not to sound holier than thou, but I am here to learn first. And learn I have so I am rewarded. The ribbons are not the real goal.
My suggestions:
1) No voting on challenges in which you are entered
2) All commenters are anonymous until the voting is done
--JR |
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