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11/17/2005 07:59:51 PM · #51 |
| If I might make a suggestion to be discussed (I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in other threads previously): since there are currently "exclusive" open challenges, allow people who enter challenge A (Odd) only vote on B (even) and vice versa . Everyone could comment on all images in both challenges, and those who enter no photo in either challenge could vote on both. Something to think about. |
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11/17/2005 08:03:11 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by deapee:
what if we totally did away with having your score visible durring voting, you had to wait until the challenge was over to see your scores, your comments, your faves, etc... |
I would say we'd have a lot of withdrawal symptoms and panic attacks. And you all know who you are out there--JUNKIES! |
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11/17/2005 08:07:19 PM · #53 |
1=
2= Does not meet challenge, out of focus, and too small
3= Does not meet challenge or so so and poor image, out of focus
4= Meets challenge & composition below average color off ect
5= Totally average fairly good image, color and focus good
6= Composition very good and quality of image (colors, focus ect)
7= Top 20 pick in my eyes
8= Top 5 pick in my eyes
9=
10=
I have yet to give a 1. If you enter it it deserves at least a two no matter how bad it is. Even if you enter a flower and the challenge is rocks. I have yet to give any 9's or 10's. Only a few I give 8's and those will be my choice for ribbon winners. Sometimes the highest I vote is a 7, but that is limited to the best images and how I see them.
I am consistant as best as possible from challenge to challenge.
For example "In the Valley" on the landscape 2 challenge was one of only 3 eights that I gave out for that challenge.
I check after each challenge to see how my votes reflect the norm.
Message edited by author 2005-11-17 20:12:26. |
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11/17/2005 08:09:16 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by phatphoto:
Originally posted by deapee:
what if we totally did away with having your score visible durring voting, you had to wait until the challenge was over to see your scores, your comments, your faves, etc... |
I would say we'd have a lot of withdrawal symptoms and panic attacks. And you all know who you are out there--JUNKIES! |
Guilty |
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11/17/2005 08:10:38 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by angela_packard:
I vote according to how others vote on my photo...but i was wondering the same thing... |
you do?
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11/17/2005 08:14:52 PM · #56 |
| Wow if I voted as people voted for me I would be a grumpy person. I personally feel a fair entry deserves a fair vote, and exceptional entry deserves an exceptional score and so on. I wonder if people are bitter when voting? Like oh people are voting me down, just wait till I vote. |
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11/17/2005 08:22:09 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by loseme:
Wow if I voted as people voted for me I would be a grumpy person. I personally feel a fair entry deserves a fair vote, and exceptional entry deserves an exceptional score and so on. I wonder if people are bitter when voting? Like oh people are voting me down, just wait till I vote. |
i agree
besides if I was a 'rogue' voter and then won, i wouldn't feel as proud cause I'd know I just fudged all the votes
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11/17/2005 08:25:01 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Makka:
I've posted this before but here it is again. It has to be a really outstanding photo for me to vote a 10! Most of my votes are around the 4 - 7 mark. Any less than that means I don't particularly like the photo or it doesn't meet the challenge etc. Titles don't influence me none and most of the time I don't read them. I'm not trying to be mean by giving lower scores to some photos but I am being honest. The photos have to appeal to ME, afterall, isn't that the idea of voting? |
i think you should consider titles. they are part of the presentation and sometimes add a special something you havent considered in the photo.
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11/17/2005 08:28:16 PM · #59 |
I give 4 to 7 generally always somes 8's usually a 9 every challenge. I give a 10 now and then and maybe more than 1 in a single challenge.
I give a 3 if it's a shocker and doesn't meet the challenge. I'm prepared to give less than that but it would have to look like they were going for brown.
I think the average you give out should be 5.5. This is a photo site and I can't see how the average of all photo's could or should be less than that. If someone does a great shot and doesn't meet the challenge well IMO I only drop them 1 point for that. If everybody done that they wouldn't ribbon or get any 10's. If the photo is obvously no where near meeting the challenge I drop it 2 points, this keeps in check anyone who puts in a brilliant photo with disreguard for the challenge.
I like to get most of my scores right on the first pass. I have seen comments made on shots that said I would have voted you higher on my second pass but didn't get time. I find this less fair than not voting at all on a pic. I resist the tendancy to vote others in proportion to what mine is getting (though it's definitely there). I feel if you vote higher you are saying to yourself my photos are not that good yet and I need to improve, voting low is giving yourself the message that your own photos are good and all the voters got it wrong. |
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11/17/2005 08:29:52 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by davidx76:
If I might make a suggestion to be discussed (I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in other threads previously): since there are currently "exclusive" open challenges, allow people who enter challenge A (Odd) only vote on B (even) and vice versa . Everyone could comment on all images in both challenges, and those who enter no photo in either challenge could vote on both. Something to think about. |
That would only work on the open challenges. Maybe members could vote on all 3, and non-members could vote on the challenge they did not enter. Most don't comment when they vote, so I doubt they would comment without voting. I hope nobody would give a great photo that meets the challenge a 4 just because there own entry was getting a 4.2. Of course, what I think is a great shot may be totally different from what you think is great. There is no way for a subjective competition to be 100% unbiased. Look at ice skating, gymnastics, diving and other olympic sports that artistic impression or quality is judged. |
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11/17/2005 08:33:11 PM · #61 |
i like the idea. Would be happy if implemented.
Originally posted by davidx76:
If I might make a suggestion to be discussed (I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in other threads previously): since there are currently "exclusive" open challenges, allow people who enter challenge A (Odd) only vote on B (even) and vice versa . Everyone could comment on all images in both challenges, and those who enter no photo in either challenge could vote on both. Something to think about. |
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11/17/2005 08:35:04 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by zxaar:
i like the idea. Would be happy if implemented.
Originally posted by davidx76:
If I might make a suggestion to be discussed (I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in other threads previously): since there are currently "exclusive" open challenges, allow people who enter challenge A (Odd) only vote on B (even) and vice versa . Everyone could comment on all images in both challenges, and those who enter no photo in either challenge could vote on both. Something to think about. |
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Who is going to vote on member challenges? I would guess most voters have entered, but don't know for sure. |
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11/17/2005 08:47:47 PM · #63 |
I am one of those voters that do not keep tabs on my score. I have gone to my preferences and made sure that the question about seeing updates is not checked. Therefore, when I vote, I do not know what my score is and it is much clearer. That is probably why my voting is almost two points higher than the votes I receive.Originally posted by zxaar:
what about if the voters do not know their scores till the end, and these are participating in the challenge. Will be interesting to see how they behave.
Originally posted by Nitin:
Originally posted by keegbow:
Why does on a whole the voters on this site vote so low ? |
EddyG has proven using statisticts that voters who did not participate, on the average, score 1 point higher than voters who participated.
It is also human to score photographs that in your opinion are not better than your entry, below your current score.
The combination of the two drags average scores down. |
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11/17/2005 09:18:48 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by saintaugust:
Originally posted by Makka:
I've posted this before but here it is again. It has to be a really outstanding photo for me to vote a 10! Most of my votes are around the 4 - 7 mark. Any less than that means I don't particularly like the photo or it doesn't meet the challenge etc. Titles don't influence me none and most of the time I don't read them. I'm not trying to be mean by giving lower scores to some photos but I am being honest. The photos have to appeal to ME, afterall, isn't that the idea of voting? |
i think you should consider titles. they are part of the presentation and sometimes add a special something you havent considered in the photo. |
But, I am voting on the photo itself, not how clever a title can be. Fair enough, I guess a lot of people put a lot of effort into a title to match with their photo but I am judging on the photo itself. Sometimes you'll come across a photo named 'untitled'! Should I mark it down because they didn't put a name to it? I don't think so. Everyone has their own way of voting and their own opinions on what to them makes a good photo. It's like when you see threads of people complaining 'why didn't my photo do better'. It's how people saw your photo. What might appeal to you doesn't mean it will appeal to everybody. Everybody is different and when you get 300 - 400 voting on an image in a challenge you'll get a wide spread of different votes. I mean, some of my photos have sucked in terms of votes received and I have votes ranging from 1's to 10's so to me, it has appealed to some people and to others they didn't like it! It's like a movie, some people will love it, some will hate it! The main thing is that you've put it out there to share! |
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11/18/2005 04:40:39 PM · #65 |
It's a range issue for me. 1 through 10 is simply too broad.
My 5 is someone else's 3 or 7.
If we were voting on a 1-3 or even 1-5 scale, there would be more consistency across the voting constituency, imho.
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11/18/2005 05:00:29 PM · #66 |
If we were voting on a 1-3 or even 1-5 scale, there would be more consistency across the voting constituency ...
And less separation between top and bottom scores, less room for really outstanding images to step away from the pack. Do you really want 250 entries scoring from 2 to 3? We'd need a couple of more decimal places to keep from having dozens of tie scores.
I think this whole thread is based on a bogus premise.
"Why do we score so low ?"
Who says we score low? Compared to what? Your dreams?
Message edited by author 2005-11-18 17:01:39.
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11/18/2005 05:12:02 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
Just been reading a couple of other threads which got me thinking and thought I would post a few questions.
Why are the best photographers on the site average score only around 6 ?
Why do only a handful of shots end up with a score over 7 in each challenge ?
Why does on a whole the voters on this site vote so low ?
This is not intended as a witch hunt I'm just curious to here some views on this. I strongly believe this site has some awesome talent and there is some incredible shots taken in each challenge but we all score shots lower then you would expect. |
Back to the original question of why voters vote low...I don't think they do. I think the scores are just where they should be.
1. With the number of quality photographers competing, most photographs will fall into the average range.
2. Even the best photographers lay eggs, especially in challenges outside their zones of comfort. Hence, lower overall averages.
3. Varying tastes keep a photo from scoring perfectly with all that vote.
As to those that feel they're voting lower when they score lower, come back and vote later when you've realized that you're photo is getting the score that it deserves. |
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11/18/2005 05:26:56 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by deapee:
what if we totally did away with having your score visible durring voting, you had to wait until the challenge was over to see your scores, your comments, your faves, etc... |
I think this is the only way to solve this problem. |
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11/18/2005 09:04:18 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
It certainly doesn't affect my voting. I have no reservations about handing out 9 and 10 scores in a challenge I've entered no matter where my score is at |
Handing out 9 or 10s to deserving ones is a no-brainer. Its the mid-range votes that suffer. It might be different for someone like you who consistently scores above 6. For someone who scores sometimes in 5s, sometimes in 4s/6s.. the average vote handed out might depend on how their own entry is scoring.
Originally posted by scalvert:
If the midpoint between 1 and 10 is 5.5, then my 5.46 average vote given seems about right to me. For anyone voting low because of their own score or suspicion of DQ, please call me... I still need a shot for the Cheater! challenge. ;-) |
My 5.5 average vote given seems about right too.. but I believe it moves up after I vote in a challenge I didnt enter, and vice versa. Besides, there's been a fair number of confessions in this thread about own score affecting voting. Heck, we didnt even need those, EddyG's stats proved that a participant bias exists.
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11/18/2005 09:59:12 PM · #70 |
| What really annoys me is a vote of say '6' is considered to be above average.....and yet it drops your overall score. How frustrating!!! You would think that a 6 vote would increase your overall score not the opposite. |
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11/18/2005 10:08:44 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Nitin:
Its the mid-range votes that suffer. |
I don't see how. If you're willing to give out votes THAT high and all the others follow a reasonable curve below that, then where is the discrimmination? I give tons of sevens and eights. My first 30 or so challenges, I was in the 4-6 range you refer to (and with more four scores than top ten finishes). My voting wasn't any different then that it is now (expcept that I did more of it).
Originally posted by scalvert:
EddyG's stats proved that a participant bias exists. |
A lower average vote for participants does NOT necessarily mean that people are voting down for malicious intentions. I can imagine someone with an entry who has thought for days about the challenge topic. He might have a narrower idea of what the topic should be about, and maybe a better appreciation of what's easy and what's not for a technique challenge. In those cases, the score could be affected independently of his own score.
Message edited by author 2005-11-18 22:10:02. |
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11/18/2005 11:02:28 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
If we were voting on a 1-3 or even 1-5 scale, there would be more consistency across the voting constituency ...
And less separation between top and bottom scores, less room for really outstanding images to step away from the pack. Do you really want 250 entries scoring from 2 to 3? We'd need a couple of more decimal places to keep from having dozens of tie scores.
I think this whole thread is based on a bogus premise.
"Why do we score so low ?"
Who says we score low? Compared to what? Your dreams? |
Who says we score low ? your Average Vote Cast: 4.5675 says you do !!
Compared to the vote range 1 - 10, as stated before only a handful of images in each challenge will score over seven.
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11/18/2005 11:03:32 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
A lower average vote for participants does NOT necessarily mean that people are voting down for malicious intentions. |
Its not a malicious intent - its human nature. (Probably affects everyone to varying degrees). While voting, I inherently tend to ask 'is this photograph better than my entry?'. If the answer is yes, I score it 8-10. If the answer is no, I might score it below what my entry is currently scoring.. making my scoring non-objective.
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11/18/2005 11:29:47 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
... Compared to the vote range 1 - 10, as stated before only a handful of images in each challenge will score over seven. |
I suggest you go back and read Britianica's post earlier in this thread. Then go to the Challenge History page and look at the average score. Scroll down the page, all the average scores are grouped right around the middle of the range, usually between 4.9 and 5.4, a few stray a little farther, the lowest I saw was a 4.7 and highest 5.8.
What do you expect? Do you think that there should be an image that everybody thinks is super and rates a 9-10 in every challenge? That's not going to happen when we have such a large and diverse group of voters.
I think the voters behave in a very normal and consistent way. I don't see why you think they vote "so low". Lower than what? What are you using to compare our voters performance with to make that judgement?
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11/18/2005 11:44:17 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by Nitin:
While voting, I inherently tend to ask 'is this photograph better than my entry?'. |
So do I, but I wouldn't allow that to influence my voting. My wife will look over my shoulder sometimes and say, "Why are you giving that shot a 9? You only have a 6.1 and yours is better." My answer is, "Because it's a great shot. I might think my own entry *deserves* a 10, but not achieving that score doesn't make HIS any less of a 9."
I tend to vote on the challenges in which I have an entry, and vote as honestly as possible (see above) so I can see which ones are gonna beat me... and they deserve to! ;-)
Message edited by author 2005-11-18 23:45:31. |
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