Let's talk imagination... - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

07/09/2003 10:00:23 AM · #1

I've just seen the results of Speed and noticed again that there are many shots way off-brief and lacking imagination.

Take these for example, which I believe do not 'convey the illusion or feeling of speed' (this is a site for criticism and evaluation after all - so here's mine!):
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=26988
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=27108
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=26991 [wow! a zoom effect!]
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=26852 [cheap trick]
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=26699 [simple, run-of-the-mill and unengaging]
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=26666 [simply off-brief - re-read it. The 'feeling' of speed would be the vibe of the drug itself. This is just a nice stock shot.]

All the above (surprisingly in my opinion) scored higher than these:
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=27010 [my shot, which got eleven '1' votes and two '10's]
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=26740
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=27053
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=27059

For me the clear winner was this:
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=27022
- and let's ban the person that voted it 1 !!!

I really think voters could be more discerning at times and think about the 'art form' and 'brief' rather than 'ooh - a nice picture - have a '10'!'.

I know from the many previous forum threads that people will say that it's subjective and that it's up to the individual to decide what's good (and I'm asking for trouble too!), BUT the theme should be the first point of judgement at least. Some of us make an effort to interpret that brief, but others try to achieve it through a visual pun or title-based word play which defeats the object.

Yes, this is a fun site but, as with all good games, the rules add more fun to the mix if you stick to them - and I'm not backwards in coming forwards, so sorry if anyone's offended!

Message edited by author 2003-07-09 10:02:08.

PaulMdx

Canon EOS-1D

07/09/2003 10:15:55 AM · #2

I notice all the photos you picked in your second list (implying they were better than the first) were related to light. I think the problem is, yes, we can appreciate light moves fast, but conceptually light has no movement at all, it's either there it is isn't. For this reason I think although the light submissions were good in their own right, they certainly are not examples of "convey[ing] the illusion or feeling of speed".

mci

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

07/09/2003 10:25:27 AM · #3

Originally posted by Jon Lucas:

All the above (surprisingly in my opinion) scored higher than these:
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=27010 [my shot, which got eleven '1' votes and two '10's]
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=26740
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=27053
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=27059

I think that if we're voting solely on the challenge description, these would be better suited for "covey the illusion of feeling of being on acid."

I think your problem here is that you're being wowed by tricks of the camera that everyone enjoys when they first start shooting. "OOoooO, look at the pretty lights and blurs!" This stuff is old hat and people are bored of it. Though, that one with the marble is really cool.

UberFish

Fujifilm FinePix S2 Pro

07/09/2003 11:09:27 AM · #4

I also had Bullet down as my favirote (I didnt rate the jet at all, a bit to much like shooting fish in a barrel to get a 10 from me, as evidenced by the PhotoSig shot).

I think Bullets problem is that there are one or two voters with old worn out monitors who cant make out what it is they are looking at and so vote low (just in case its a bad pic!).

07/09/2003 11:10:38 AM · #5

Originally posted by mci:

I think your problem here is that you're being wowed by tricks of the camera that everyone enjoys when they first start shooting. "OOoooO, look at the pretty lights and blurs!" This stuff is old hat and people are bored of it. Though, that one with the marble is really cool.

Your presumption that I'm wooed by camera 'tricks' is amusing (and slightly condescending) since my favourite shot is not visual FX or trickery but a tastefully 'designed' photograph with mood, great spacial awarenss and accuracy to the challenge brief.

ALL objects interact with light and is that interaction that delivers ANY visual information at all. The shots I chose were examples that were 'beaten' by the previous ones - so I challenge you to select any of them and define their relevance to the challenge definition.

By the way, have I look at my favourite photos/photographers if you think I'm tunnel-visioned with my moth-like attraction to light!

I think the top three were great shots, as were a number of the top half of the list.

lbWhaples

Olympus C-4000Z

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

07/09/2003 11:32:20 AM · #6

Jon, you didn't offer criticism, you only offered your opinion. Learn to take yourself with a grain of salt.

magnetic9999

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

07/09/2003 11:42:07 AM · #7

the only one i really agree with your assessment of is ballistic or whatever the silver ball is called. that one really walks a nice line between graphic design, photography, and using light.

the others i didnt think conveyed much speed at all.

i also thought the 'zoom effect' one was good and so was the cable.

just my 2 cents (sorry greenem2 ;))..

07/09/2003 12:21:18 PM · #8

Originally posted by lbWhaples:

Jon, you didn't offer criticism, you only offered your opinion. Learn to take yourself with a grain of salt.

Tone of voice can be tough to communicate sometimes but, believe me, I couldn't take myself with much more salt without bleeding the oceans dry of the stuff.

As for my lack of 'criticism' I'm not sure what your definition is! Here's the dictionary one:
The act of criticizing, especially adversely.
A critical comment or judgment.
The practice of analyzing, classifying, interpreting, or evaluating literary or other artistic works.

I rest my case for the defence (UK spelling!). Now you take yourself with a grain of the white stuff and try addressing the issue that those pix I chose don't suit the challenge well enough. ;)

Nazgul

07/09/2003 12:28:07 PM · #9

Jon LUcas the speed specialist.....

as we use to say her in iceland its just another bla bla bla bla

Originally posted by Jon Lucas:

07/09/2003 12:35:01 PM · #10

[quote=Nazgul]Jon LUcas the speed specialist.....

as we use to say her in iceland its just another bla bla bla bla [quote]

What's Icelandic for 'upset the apple cart' then, oh grim reaping one?

Nazgul

07/09/2003 12:38:24 PM · #11

ohhh if only you knew ;)....

But glad you liked my stock photo though:D

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

07/09/2003 12:51:31 PM · #12

Originally posted by Nazgul:

ohhh if only you knew ;)....

But glad you liked my stock photo though:D

I take it you didn't see any merit in the points I made then?
BTW I told you it was a great shot - just not one that 'conveys the illusion of...' etc., etc..

Diversq

Canon EOS-10D

07/09/2003 12:57:00 PM · #13

[quote=UberFish](I didnt rate the jet at all, a bit to much like shooting fish in a barrel to get a 10 from me, as evidenced by the PhotoSig shot).[quote]

Come on now, their are 2 piano shots, 8 speedometer shots and 11 blur the highway light shots. I only see one Jet Fish in the line-up and it doesnâ��t even deserve a rating from you?

ScottK

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

07/09/2003 03:57:11 PM · #14

Jon, in the spirit of "criticism and evaluation"... You posted in another thread during the speed challenge complaining about your shot's score and your disappointment with the entries (if I recall right). I went back Tuesday night after the results were posted and, out of curiousity, looked at the entries by those who were complaining - just wanted to see if I thought their complaints were valid. Yours was one that really stood out as misguided! :-) I personally think your final score was pretty generous. Your shot's got no real subject, the lights aren't even very sharp, and I don't really see any conveyance of speed - could just as easily be some lights taken with a long exposure by someone with a shakey hand! These kind of shots are really pretty corny to me, and like MCI mentioned, a trick almost everyone tries at some early point in their digital camera experience (hey, no film costs, I can shoot anything!). Yours just doesn't offer anything unique - it doesn't even give a sense of anything that you put much effort into. (And, hey, no personal attacks intended, but you opened the topic of criticism, and then held your shot up...)

As for your lists, I won't comment on specific shots cause I know some of the people, but I'm about 50/50 on each list - some I agree with you, some I think "what kind of drugs is Jon on???" ;-)

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

07/09/2003 04:25:13 PM · #15

The best response yet, Scott - and I take it in the spirit in which I made mine. ;)

You're right - mine is experimentation (under duress of time too) and I make no pretences about that - but I didn't expect to win high votes with it anyway. However, I disagree that it doesn't convey speed - and that's my main point. You say that it lacks a subject - I say that it's subject is speed as there is no time for a subject to be involved. Where's the rule that states a photo must have a tangible, discernible subject anyway? To me at least the composition is satisfying depsite the weaknesses I mention myself in the notes.
The lights are in focus mid way in, but are they are still distorted by camera movement.

Some comments I received mention that they've no idea what it is, but it's aesthetic nonetheless - which is why I submitted it.

And I have to take you up on corny - just count the number of car shots, streaky street shots, boat shots, wheel shots, etc., etc... [not to mention spinning shots! ;) ]

BTW, you should comment on the shots of people you know - or are you now inhibited from being honest with them?

I'd really like to hear how you would justify the presence of the train shot and the syringe relating to the 'convey speed or illusion of speed' brief.

PS. I don't do drugs ;)

dsidwell

Canon EOS-5D

07/09/2003 05:15:17 PM · #16

I thought most of the shots you mention as not communicating speed actually did to me. I hope you're not assuming that photography is a science that can be deduced through objective observation. It's not. It's very subjective on both the part of the artist and the observer--and that's what makes it fun and stimulating to me. If it were science, it would not be as fun to me.

However, in discussing art, I do value your opinion and enjoy discussing the challenges and the entries that make them up. This is also part of the fun of the art. I do find your rigid stance, Jon, somewhat misplaced in an artistic contest, though.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

07/09/2003 05:30:33 PM · #17

Originally posted by dsidwell:

I do find your rigid stance, Jon, somewhat misplaced in an artistic contest, though.

David, I'm a little dissappointed that you think my stance is rigid because I'm about as flexible as they come! Are you now stifling my right to free thought? ;)

Is it just because I have a strong opinion on challenge relevance? I actually believe that it's the one single thing that can let this site down - scattering challenges with miscellaneous images of no particular relevance. It's not science but observation of a brief, however trivial!

I am an artist (graphic mainly) by trade, and I find this issue a little baffling. After all, if someone asks you to paint a portrait and you deliver a still-life, is that down to interpretation or sheer disregard for information?

Like I said in my original point - sticking to the rules makes it more fun.

BTW, I too value opinions and I find the responses intriguing, particularly if comparisons are made.

RiderGal

Nikon D300

07/09/2003 05:59:39 PM · #18

Look guys... what I think people fail to remember sometimes on this site is the fact that a lot of people on here are fairly new, or haven't had much photography experience... I want to know if you all started off taking photos that were extremely high tech, or totally original. Yes some of those photos have been done other times... but that doesn't mean that we should count them off right away. Looking at how they were done, lighting, and everything like that is important. We can only get better by "copying" or trying out other things that we have seen. Come on now! Give us a break... a photography competition isn't JUST about originality... and things can be interprated diffferent ways by different people (we see it every week with the challenge rules) Take a break and remember this site is about having fun, learning, and getting better at photography... Thanks! 'nuff said

-T

P.S. I had a [wow! a zoom effect] photo too... guess I shouldn't have entered it... cause it obviously didn't convey speed.

dacrazyrn

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

07/09/2003 06:18:27 PM · #19

Nothing you see in photography is original! Someone has already done it, somewhere, at sometime.

Jacko

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

07/09/2003 06:58:40 PM · #20

Looks like you think your technique was the most badass, since all your top pics look like yours. I feel the first set of pictures portraits speed better. Crazy lights does not convey speed in my mind.

ozdick

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

07/09/2003 07:47:52 PM · #21

Here's a thought
Maybe long exposures of light don't convey the "illusion of speed" to many people.
The first set of photos might not either, but at least their subject is definable and thus most likely to capture the voters eye. Unfortunately a "what is it" shot is unlikely to score well.

Oh.. and definitely agree with your thoughts on "Balistic" entry though. Gave that my second highest score

Message edited by author 2003-07-09 19:48:45.

jbruno1397

Canon PowerShot S40

07/09/2003 07:52:41 PM · #22

I gave it a one are you gonna ban me?
"where books burn people burn"

Diversq

Canon EOS-10D

07/09/2003 09:09:35 PM · #23

Originally posted by dacrazyrn:

Nothing you see in photography is original! Someone has already done it, somewhere, at sometime.

I disagree, no one has ever taken a photo of me jumping into a lake naked before so it would in this case be original.

RiderGal

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

07/09/2003 09:20:06 PM · #24

Originally posted by Diversq:

Originally posted by dacrazyrn:
Nothing you see in photography is original! Someone has already done it, somewhere, at sometime.
I disagree, no one has ever taken a photo of me jumping into a lake naked before so it would in this case be original.

So far as you know ;-) hehehehe

casualguy