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08/08/2006 02:48:35 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by msgoodygal:
I'll ask you again, since you seemed to have missed it the first time around:
If you know there is no mal-intent on my part, why are you removing comments left in good spirit, when your own FAQs state that you ENCOURAGE comments, and why is this even an issue? |
Here...let me copy and paste it for you...
"It is not allowed to alter the stats (intentionally or not) for any reason. This affects any future invitational challenges we may have.
We did not accuse you of having any malicious intent. We simply asked you not to do it. To which you refused to comply." |
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08/08/2006 03:34:56 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by HBunch:
Originally posted by msgoodygal:
I'll ask you again, since you seemed to have missed it the first time around:
If you know there is no mal-intent on my part, why are you removing comments left in good spirit, when your own FAQs state that you ENCOURAGE comments, and why is this even an issue? |
Here...let me copy and paste it for you...
"It is not allowed to alter the stats (intentionally or not) for any reason. This affects any future invitational challenges we may have.
We did not accuse you of having any malicious intent. We simply asked you not to do it. To which you refused to comply." |
I'm complying with your FAQ, which is clearly written (unlike your other unwritten rule), states, that you ENCOURAGE comments.
If you ENCOURAGE people to comment, and then they do, how does that alter the stats?
Aren't you then ENCOURAGING people to alter the stats? Or do you really not want them to comment on every one? Or is it only certain people that we can comment on? Or is it only every other one that we can comment on? Or is it only every 1 out of 3, or is it only comments that contain some many words? Or is it only comments that take so many seconds to leave?
So tell me, how many CAN we comment on before you send us nasty, threatening emails, accusing us of (intentionally or not), altering the stats?
Spell it out. Just how many entries are you ENCOURAGING us to comment on?
Read your own facts, and please clarify.
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 03:37:50. |
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08/08/2006 03:43:07 AM · #28 |
It seems a shame, I browsed through some of your 'more detailed' comments, and they are great. I think most folks here would love to receive such comments, I know I would. It would be a shame to lose a great asset to the community. Seeing as how you are relatively new, it is totally understandable that you wouldn't know about the occasional Invitational challenge (which by the way, doesn't neccesarily have anything to do with how 'good' your photos are, they just have restrictive criteria), or the value placed on site statistics. So SC informed you of this. Perhaps a more positive attitude would be to say "Oh, well now I know. Lesson learned." Maybe try to put your effort and energy in a more appreciated and better accepted direction.
Let me give a little analogy. Let's say I really care for and love all people. I believe that everyone has an inner beauty, and everyone deserves to be complimented, and given encouragement to their self-esteem. Let's say I really sincerely believe this, and in my heart I really care about folks and want to do what I can to make people feel good. So I sit down and write a little note that says "You are a beautiful person." Now I get a few hundred stamps, and a mailing list, and send them out. No harm done, I'm not asking for anything, I just feel that everyone is special, and deserves to be told that. An admirable feeling. But now, most of the people that find this note in their mail, won't even give it a second thought and will throw it in the trash with the rest of the junk mail. No matter how well intended and heart felt it started out, it ends up just being impersonal and devoid of any real meaning or sincerity. I'd have a much stronger affect if I personally told a few people when I could things like "You're a beautiful person, you have such a warm and friendly smile." etc.
It does bother me when people go off on site council. They are people, just like you and me. Trust me, they are not 'out to get' anyone. They are volunteers, who give much of their time and efforts doing a most often thankless, and difficult job trying to help the site function and make it an enjoyable and useful place for everyone.
The point is, maybe instead of taking offense and making a major battle out of something that didn't start out as such, just try and step back and see and understand it in context.
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08/08/2006 03:50:20 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by taterbug:
It seems a shame, I browsed through some of your 'more detailed' comments, and they are great. I think most folks here would love to receive such comments, I know I would. |
I even personally invited her to join the Critique Club. I think She would be a very valued member there. I think it would be a great idea. But I only got a sarcastic reply back. *shrug*
THanks for your words taterbug...that's pretty much how it is. |
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08/08/2006 04:17:43 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by HBunch:
Originally posted by taterbug:
It seems a shame, I browsed through some of your 'more detailed' comments, and they are great. I think most folks here would love to receive such comments, I know I would. |
I even personally invited her to join the Critique Club. I think She would be a very valued member there. I think it would be a great idea. But I only got a sarcastic reply back. *shrug*
THanks for your words taterbug...that's pretty much how it is. |
You got the response back that you did in regard to the critique club because you had just previously stated to me that I give about 7 seconds worth of viewing time to each entry, and then proceeded to tell me that those 7 seconds were worthless.
So my response to you was, why would I then be a valuable asset to any critique club, when you had just critizied the length of time that I spent reviewing an entry. Doesn't quite make sense, does it?
Oh, and if my comments were that good, do you really think that I only spent 7 seconds reviewing those photos? |
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08/08/2006 04:24:44 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by msgoodygal:
Oh, and if my comments were that good, do you really think that I only spent 7 seconds reviewing those photos? |
Because you obviously spend more than 7 seconds on the lengthier comments. Since it's the lengthy comments the CC is looking for, those are the ones that matter to the CC.
So. Are ya in? |
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08/08/2006 04:38:17 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by HBunch:
Originally posted by msgoodygal:
Oh, and if my comments were that good, do you really think that I only spent 7 seconds reviewing those photos? |
Because you obviously spend more than 7 seconds on the lengthier comments. Since it's the lengthy comments the CC is looking for, those are the ones that matter to the CC.
So. Are ya in? |
Yes, lengthier comments would usually take more time to complete. And a 7 second comment is appreciated by many, and is more than what most people manage to do.
But...Definately not knowledgable enough on digital photography to be 'in'. I'll pass. |
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08/08/2006 04:46:08 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by msgoodygal:
You got the response back that you did...Oh, and if my comments were that good, do you really think that I only spent 7 seconds reviewing those photos? |
The '7 seconds', I'm sure is referring to the 'cut and paste' comments, not the more detailed ones. (personally, I think 7 seconds is actually a generous assumption)
You see, you could very well be viewing each and every photo for several minutes, or whatever. However, to leave a generic, cut and paste simple comment on a vast amount of photos, can't you see where that would certainly give the appearance that no time was spent at all on it?
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08/08/2006 04:49:40 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by msgoodygal:
You got the response back that you did in regard to the critique club because you had just previously stated to me that I give about 7 seconds worth of viewing time to each entry, and then proceeded to tell me that those 7 seconds were worthless.
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Out of little squabbles comes valuable information. So SC can tell how long we spent with a photo? Or was this just an estimate thrown out? Photos that I mark very low, seven seconds would just about be the right time. FWIW I seldom rate below 4. One excellent way to get rated below 4 by me is to enter an image of dangerous ilicit drugs. ( Hint: this ain't pot.) Those take about 1 second. Wonder what SC thinks when I drift off contemplating an image and awaken an hour later to finish voting and perhaps commenting. There is a vote timeout as I have to vote twice after these incidents. :)
In any event it's probably time for the Rodney King quote. But I won't do it. ;)
msgoodygal, I appreciate my "Great Job", just don't give it to everybody from now on and everything will be ok. Come up with two things to paste, then if they don't like that, three things. At some point it'll be ok, unless they're upset that you commented on all the entries. :(
As far as affecting the stats, this mystifies me. Every time I vote the stats are affected. Darn english language is so ineffective. ;) |
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08/08/2006 04:55:04 AM · #35 |
| didn't realize we were so close to an airport |
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08/08/2006 04:57:56 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by taterbug:
didn't realize we were so close to an airport |
That your excuse for being up this early?
;) |
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08/08/2006 05:10:54 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by taterbug:
Originally posted by msgoodygal:
You got the response back that you did...Oh, and if my comments were that good, do you really think that I only spent 7 seconds reviewing those photos? |
The '7 seconds', I'm sure is referring to the 'cut and paste' comments, not the more detailed ones. (personally, I think 7 seconds is actually a generous assumption)
You see, you could very well be viewing each and every photo for several minutes, or whatever. However, to leave a generic, cut and paste simple comment on a vast amount of photos, can't you see where that would certainly give the appearance that no time was spent at all on it? |
Yes, I can see that if the challenge voting process only allowed me one glance at the photo. Howver, the voting is open for viewing and reviewing for what, 7 days? I have explained that I went back in before the closing of the challenge, readjusted what I thought was necessary, sometimes just by thumbnail view, other times, fully viewing, these photos. If I leave 1 out of 3 detailed comments, that is pretty darn good. And if I leave the other 2 out of 3 with a brief comment, although the same comment, it may not be as good, but in most cases, it's been appreciated.
My voting is thorough, consistant, and the way that I leave comments does not break any posted rule.
And comon now, who would invite someone to the CC if they really felt that they were altering the stats? If she really believed that, why would she want me - someone that dishonest - to be part of the CC? |
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08/08/2006 05:16:54 AM · #38 |
| Heather is inviting you because you make good lengthy comments and she's already stated there was no deliberate attempt to skew the stats. The stats are skewed as a consequence of your over enthusiasm not because of any dishonesty, and Heather has said that too. Where you are REALLY needed is in the CC. So are you in?;) |
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08/08/2006 05:37:46 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by amber:
Heather is inviting you because you make good lengthy comments and she's already stated there was no deliberate attempt to skew the stats. The stats are skewed as a consequence of your over enthusiasm not because of any dishonesty, and Heather has said that too. Where you are REALLY needed is in the CC. So are you in?;) |
No Amber, those things were never relayed in the emails between us before this has spilled over to these forums.
If there was no deliberate attempt to skew the stats, then why can't my comments stay? If comments are truly ENCOURAGED after all?
Anyway, although I have a good eye for visual arts, I do not know enough about the technical aspects of photography to give critique on anyone. I am only just learning the manual settings on my point and click, and am far from knowing what most of them are for. How could I evaluate a photo from people with skills like what I've seen here?
Can I tell them that the photo is aesthetically very beautiful, or that color, lighting or subject matter is beautiful, absolutely. Can I tell them what they could do to improve a photo? Probably not if it's a technical aspect.
Which is why in many cases, I can't honestly leave anything other than a 'great job' comment, because that little is all that I can do. But at least I try to do a 'little', and in many cases, manage to do alot. |
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08/08/2006 05:48:38 AM · #40 |
If there was no deliberate attempt to skew the stats, then why can't my comments stay? If comments are truly ENCOURAGED after all?
The lengthier ones will, but as it stands the cut and paste ones cannot, because they DO skew the stats
whether you meant to or not.
It's not personal I have seen this happen before. It's Heather's job to see that all rules are adhered to.
As for CC you don't need technical knowledge, you can just say how an image made you feel and why you think it is good or bad. |
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08/08/2006 07:26:56 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by amber:
...It's Heather's job to see that all rules are adhered to. ...
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Ok...I've read this thread and I've revisited the DPChallenge rules and FAQ's. Can someone please tell where it's stated that cutting and pasting of comments is against the rules?
Here is what I've found regarding comments on DPChallenge.
FAQ: How do comments work?
Voters are highly encouraged to leave comments on photographs. During voting, simply type your comment in the space provided, and then click your vote. You may adjust your comments later.
After voting, you can add more comments on the photograph and see what others said about the photograph as well. As this site focuses on learning, please keep all comments constructive. Try to help the photographer with comments like how to improve the work or how to make it more appealing. Leaving comments also helps your own photography skills, as it teaches you to look at your own work more critically.
Challenge Rules : Challenge Voting
Users are highly encouraged to leave comments on a photograph by using the comment box under each photograph. Criticism, praise, and other constructive comments are all welcome. Blatantly slanderous, rude, or profane comments may be removed, and the owners of such comments may be suspended or lose their accounts. If you feel a photograph deserves a vote of 1, 2 or 3, please include a comment with your vote explaining why you felt it deserved a "below average" score.
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08/08/2006 07:34:11 AM · #42 |
Perhaps it's the spirit of the rules?
'During voting, simply type your comment in the space provided'
Cutting and pasting is different to typing?
And when we had the invitational for people who had made comments above a certain number, people went mad trying to fulfil their quota and sometimes just left a one word comment.
I didn't complain about this. I was simply trying to back up Heather after a horrible couple of weeks, and recruit a great member for CC. ;)
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 07:34:47. |
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08/08/2006 07:47:01 AM · #43 |
i cut and paste all the time, i just don't make it look obvious ;-)
i don't do this to skew the stats, i do it because i am not about to type this out all the time:
"if you would like to improve your scores, you should really read this thread."
which, as far as i'm concerned, is a helluva lot more useful than simply commenting "DNMC" |
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08/08/2006 07:47:11 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by HBunch:
Since you want to discuss it publicly, no one 'compelled' the SC to remove the comments. (only brought it to our attention) We have never allowed cut and pasting comments. Especillay over 1500 of the exact same cut and paste comment.
It is not allowed to alter the stats (intentionally or not) for any reason. This affects any future invitational challenges we may have.
We did not accuse you of having any malicious intent. We simply asked you not to do it. To which you refused to comply. (and personally insulted my intelligence, but we wont get into that)
The comments are being removed, and if you (or anyone else) feels the need to continue making such cut and paste comments, they will be removed as well, and possible penalties applied. |
From what I can read here it is implied that there are rules regarding cutting and pasting of comments. In reality I have yet to find any.
Then the SC post goes on to say that "possible penalties applied". ?!!
If there are rules, then let's see them. If the rules do not exist, let's get them added, but let's NOT infer to them and makes threats when they are not justified. |
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08/08/2006 08:12:34 AM · #45 |
Well now I'm confused. I had a comment in the very beginning but I don't think it was from msgoodygal. I can't remember right now. And it was a nice comment too. Strange.
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08/08/2006 08:22:55 AM · #46 |
| the only problem I had with the "Great Job" comments were that my score always dropped a tad at the saem time the comment was left (yes, I'm addicted and watch too closely). If my image was such a Great Job, then why the low vote? Why not tell me what it is that makes it not worth a 5 or higher? Several others also mentioned in a previous thread that their score also dropped as soon as they got the Great Job comment. |
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08/08/2006 08:30:12 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by ShutterPug:
the only problem I had with the "Great Job" comments were that my score always dropped a tad at the saem time the comment was left (yes, I'm addicted and watch too closely). If my image was such a Great Job, then why the low vote? Why not tell me what it is that makes it not worth a 5 or higher? Several others also mentioned in a previous thread that their score also dropped as soon as they got the Great Job comment. |
And how many scores went up after that comment? ;^) Less likely to complain about those aren't we... |
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08/08/2006 08:49:30 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by ShutterPug:
the only problem I had with the "Great Job" comments were that my score always dropped a tad at the saem time the comment was left (yes, I'm addicted and watch too closely). If my image was such a Great Job, then why the low vote? Why not tell me what it is that makes it not worth a 5 or higher? Several others also mentioned in a previous thread that their score also dropped as soon as they got the Great Job comment. |
And how many scores went up after that comment? ;^) Less likely to complain about those aren't we... |
I understand what you're saying but shouldn't scores go up after a "great job" comment and go down after a "this shot sucks" comment?
I think ShutterPug hit the nail on the head with this one msgoodygal.
To be honest, low scores don't get me fired up like they do a lot of people - but I won't tell you that they don't matter to me. However, when the first comment on my image is, "great job", but I see a vote of 4, I get a little ticked. It makes me feel like the commenter is being, for lack of a better term, "troll-like". I realize by reading this thread that this was not msgoodygals intent but I truly can't see how an image would get a "great job" with a vote of less than 6 or so (in my eyes 6 is very low for a great job).
Don't get me wrong, there are people here who give comments as to how good the image is then follow it up with a much lower vote than you'd presume after reading a comment that was so full of praise and no help to improve. Sure, it's the person's prerogative to cast the vote they want, but I think it's pretty shatty of me to leave a 4 when I've just told you how much I love your image and no critique as to what I'd do differently.
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08/08/2006 09:01:58 AM · #49 |
âI sense something. A presence I've not felt since...â
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08/08/2006 09:04:41 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by ShutterPug:
the only problem I had with the "Great Job" comments were that my score always dropped a tad at the saem time the comment was left (yes, I'm addicted and watch too closely). If my image was such a Great Job, then why the low vote? Why not tell me what it is that makes it not worth a 5 or higher? Several others also mentioned in a previous thread that their score also dropped as soon as they got the Great Job comment. |
And how many scores went up after that comment? ;^) Less likely to complain about those aren't we... |
I understand what you're saying but shouldn't scores go up after a "great job" comment and go down after a "this shot sucks" comment?
I think ShutterPug hit the nail on the head with this one msgoodygal.
To be honest, low scores don't get me fired up like they do a lot of people - but I won't tell you that they don't matter to me. However, when the first comment on my image is, "great job", but I see a vote of 4, I get a little ticked. It makes me feel like the commenter is being, for lack of a better term, "troll-like". I realize by reading this thread that this was not msgoodygals intent but I truly can't see how an image would get a "great job" with a vote of less than 6 or so (in my eyes 6 is very low for a great job).
Don't get me wrong, there are people here who give comments as to how good the image is then follow it up with a much lower vote than you'd presume after reading a comment that was so full of praise and no help to improve. Sure, it's the person's prerogative to cast the vote they want, but I think it's pretty shatty of me to leave a 4 when I've just told you how much I love your image and no critique as to what I'd do differently. |
To sum this up: it makes the "Great job!" seem completely ingenuine. I don't think anyone is quibbling over scoring methods.
Oy, after seeing all the drama that's come from this I feel bad for being the first to figure it out(or at least post it), but I guess if I hadn't, someone else would have :/
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 09:05:17.
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