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04/07/2008 04:54:21 PM · #1 |
I tried searching for this topic, but couldn't find the answers I need... perhaps you can point me to forums or help guide me!
I have shot many weddings, but never have I had to shoot the traditional, posed photos inside the church without a flash or lights. I am shooting my friend's wedding in FL. They are flying me in for a few days, and they want all of their photos to be taken in 25 min or less (huge list of bride with, groom with, etc) inside the church (no flash allowed). I thought it was no flash for the ceremony, but it's no flash at all. Hmmm, what to do?
I have a Canon 20D, 24-70 2.8L, a 70-200 2.8L, and a Tam 17-35mm 2.8. Any suggestions or is it just "hope for the best?"
PS. I do have a tripod, but getting them to stay still (enough) is often a difficult task.
Message edited by author 2008-04-07 16:55:01.
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04/07/2008 04:58:07 PM · #2 |
In my little experience of shooting inside churches I would say you can get good results at f2.8 around ISO 800/1600 depending on church really, I have shot at f2.8/ISO-400 inside a church before. Make sure you grab the bestman to help round up the family members on the list and make sure everyone stays around, start with the largest group and work down from there.. good luck.
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04/07/2008 05:57:45 PM · #3 |
No flash...for formals? Huh. New one on me. If you are talking about the group shots at the alter where bride and groom stand in one place (mostly) and you throw family/wedding party in around them. Then I may have a solution. Crank every light on the church has and/or bring constant lamps. Set them up just like you would strobes/flashes but have them be constant light. Similar to "poor man's lighting" only you are using it because you can't have anything that flashes. There is my "outside the box" contribution for the day.
-drew |
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04/07/2008 06:18:48 PM · #4 |
Yup, the only way is to crank up that ISO, which I believe is quite a scary prospect on a 20D, it's not undoable, but the images would probably be best reserved for printing and not viewing at full-res on a screen.
(thats why I love my 5D so much, it beats the 1d mk3 hands down for noise at high ISOs)
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04/07/2008 06:20:58 PM · #5 |
Wow... never heard of flash not being allowed for the formals. Are you certain that is a requirement?
Trouble is, at f/2.8 you'll be hard pressed to shoot group pictures with any kind of depth of field. And the more you stop down, the higher the ISO is going to have to go. Scary, scary....
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04/07/2008 09:20:32 PM · #6 |
It may not be doable. Find out what is up with the strobe thing - call the church, talk to the pastor. The B&G may just be confused (not the first time for that!).
You'll need F4 on a crop body or 5.6 on a FF body for 3 rows of people. If you go below 1/30 second you risk blurry subject from their motion (without flash). I've never had anyone order bigger than an 8x10 of said formals..well, a 12x12 in a an album once, but since they're not printing large you can run the ISO up without much fear - yes you can reduce noise later but you still lose detail and that looks crappy in a large print. You've got a 20D? Shoot no higher than 800. A 30D can do 1000-1200 if well exposed, a 40D 1600. A 5D or 1D3 i'd say you could shoot well exposed formals at 3200. Again, assuming your not printing huge.
Problem around here is must churches are dark even with all the lights on, and most have spots on the altar-spots that cast shadows and with groups can produce uneven lighting. My first wedding I shot with ambient...since then I've always taken studio strobes.
As to the time issue...you will ALWAYS have less time than they say you'll have - they'll run over, start late, change things, the preacher will sermonize forever, etc. I've managed 20-25 minutes but not with large amounts of people. Last wedding took 40 minutes and we wanted to go on but saturday catholic weddings are always scheduled right before the evening service and never have enough time for formals. Could be the large italian families around here that are the problem thought LOL
Be upfront with the bride on the technical and time issues - if she's been warned and told emphatically that what she want's is not possible then she's less likely to be a bridezilla afterwards. Offer to shoot outside, or before the ceremony as much as possible.
Have her make a list of what she wants in the order of importance to her - when time is up then that's it, you leave and what's not shot isn't getting shot.
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04/07/2008 10:45:50 PM · #7 |
Hi everyone,
Thank you for your suggestions. They are flying me across the country for this wedding, so I can't bring lighting (not that I have my own anyhow). I hope they are confused about the flash thing for formals. They said no flash at all when I asked about formals and ceremony, but I'll try to reach the pastor when he returns next week from vacation.
My flash is a 580ex (original) with a Lumiquest Softbox on it. I can light the family just fine with it, but I'd prefer additional (natural) lighting! I told the bride that I really would prefer to do shots outside, but she is insistent. Great idea on getting her to give me an ORDER of importance for the photo list she gave me. I am sure we'll run out of time, and she doesn't want any formals taken at the reception hall. Bah!
Since I have the 20D, I won't go past 800 ISO. I hate to use that even! I wish the new 5D upgrade was available now! I got my Business Amex approved, so I can buy the 16mm to 35mm lens as soon as it gets here... which may be after this wedding. Boo! :( My 20D isn't worth too much as a sale, but I may try to sell the body in hopes to get some $ towards the 40D. What do you think? I am not thinking about the 5D right now, due to the Digic III in the 40D and the fact that I'm going to get the new 5D upgrade in the Fall.
I digress...
I will ask the Pastor to turn on ALL the lights for the formals. That should help. The bride said the church would mostly be lit with candles during the ceremony. This is going to be a challenge for sure! :)
Well, wish me luck!
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04/07/2008 10:50:23 PM · #8 |
Where is the wedding and when? I'm in Florida, perhaps I can help.....
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04/07/2008 11:33:49 PM · #9 |
It's in Miami. I asked the bride if I could bring a friend, but she said she didn't want any extra people and there'd be no room at the reception hall. Bah. She's the fiance of a good friend of mine... but I wish she was more open to my suggestions.
Thank you so much for offering your help! That's really awesome of you!!!!
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04/07/2008 11:37:18 PM · #10 |
Candle lit ceremony.... wow.
Rent the 85mm f/1.2L for that weekend. It'll buy you several stops of light. Check out //www.rentphotostuff.com/ (the owner is a user here on DPC, they rent lenses a week at a time).
Message edited by author 2008-04-07 23:37:49.
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04/08/2008 01:20:23 AM · #11 |
I am not getting paid for this wedding, so I didn't want to spend any money on it. Though... it would be good for my portfolio. Hmmm.
Is that lens good for the 1.6 crop on the 20D? It seems like it may be a bit narrow. I'll def consider it though!
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04/08/2008 01:47:54 AM · #12 |
yeah, I'd not go into that with anything less than a 50mm f/1.4. f/2.8 is nice, but not quite enough for dark indoors spots.
Bring a tripod or monopod for sure though. I use a tripod simply because I can leave it in one spot. I leave the head loosened for free movement, but it eliminates a ton of hand-shake.
Sounds like they don't give you much leeway. I like the suggestion of your own constant lighting. There's got to be something there, but make sure it's strong or it won't be worth much at all.
Of course there's also the other option. grab a bunch of pews and pile them up in a stack. Empty out one can of gasoline and light it on fire. Nice warm glow to bring out skin tones. Plus the pastor will learn that it's SUCH a PITA to shoot a group by candle light. :) |
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04/08/2008 02:57:07 AM · #13 |
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04/08/2008 07:21:52 AM · #14 |
you're not getting paid, can't bring free help, have to work under nearly impossible conditions and rules...if it were me I think I might hear one of my kids getting sick. Planes get missed. Luggage (cameras) get lost... yeah, she'd be mad. But she'll be a LOT madder when the images aren't up to her impossible expectations - and yes, from the way you describe her, her expections are going to be impossible.
This is why you never shoot a wedding for free!
An 85 1.8 would be nice during the ceremony and cheap ($350 ish), and it's sharp and got good focus. You'll need a tripod.
What is your backup camera? Got backup flash (not that you can use flash this time...) I hope you're not working without a backup body, especially 3000 miles from home!
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04/08/2008 07:25:06 AM · #15 |
You are to be put on shame very easy with this work. Sometime I was pleased with an invite to do a thing like yours. The fiance was very rigid and so "creative" with their own ligth scheme. She said I was forbidden to flash or put any extra light. Them I said to her that wedding is a one life time ceremony. The only thing she will had to remenber is the good crafted picture work I had to bo done. Because of it I refuse to do any shot without a minimum condition to let me help the bride to have a good work in hands.
Well, this was hardly to manage, but by now I'm a personal photographer of this family. Finally she gives up space to my work and I left some time and space to her ideas too. The question is that some people don't want the anoying presence of photo gear in this special moment. But they left that is your work that last for the years to come.
But be sure you are able to do the job with restrictions imposed or refuse it. It's worth to a professional to do it.
Message edited by author 2008-04-08 07:27:53.
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04/08/2008 08:47:00 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by mirdonamy:
I am not getting paid for this wedding, so I didn't want to spend any money on it. Though... it would be good for my portfolio. Hmmm.
Is that lens good for the 1.6 crop on the 20D? It seems like it may be a bit narrow. I'll def consider it though! |
You are in a no-win situation. I'd back out if I were you. You won't be able to produce quality work under such ridiculously unreasonable conditions...and bridezilla is gonna get mad at you when she finds out the photos are blurry or noisy... |
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04/08/2008 08:50:44 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by mirdonamy:
It's in Miami. I asked the bride if I could bring a friend, but she said she didn't want any extra people and there'd be no room at the reception hall. Bah. She's the fiance of a good friend of mine... but I wish she was more open to my suggestions.
Thank you so much for offering your help! That's really awesome of you!!!! |
Good friend or not, you are being set up for failure here. There can be no good outcome with the constraints she is putting on you. The lighting will suck, the photos will be noisy, and the DOF will be harshly shallow I would fear. I think that I'd just tell her to find a photog in that area that will work with all those conditions, go to the wedding, watch the photo circus and enjoy the free cocktails. You really are being put in a tight spot, and shooting a wedding like this first will probably make you cringe at the idea of shooting any more for profit in the future.
Seriously, walk away from this one.
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04/08/2008 10:32:37 AM · #18 |
I think I might actually agree with Eric. I think it could be done, but I think you'd need a fairly hefty rental to pull it off. I'd not go into that with anything less than a 5D. I'd get her to hire a local. That's more of a lose-win-win situation. You'd lose the experience and probably miss the wedding, but keep the friend (honesty counts for a lot), and she runs a chance of getting someone local who has the kit to deal with the poor lighting, hence getting the shots she wants. What about checking out the rental cost of a 5D? It's not too hard to get used to from a 20D I would imagine.
If that's not an option, I'd do the formals with the bridal party (not all the guest shots) outside.
As was already mentioned, it's unlikely that any of those will be printed any larger than 5x7, so you're flush with leeway there.
You probably won't get all of the guest shots finished in time, so plan for failure. Get them to order a few big group shots earlier on in the list, so everyone has a chance to go up and be in a shot. At a recent wedding I did, many of the guests were not even interested in going up after they had been up once.
If you could get a handful of those big and mid-sized group shots out of the way nice and early, then there's a good chance that instead of facing an angry bunch of ladies (and men?) who never got to have their pic taken with the B&G, you'd be facing a small group of ladies who had already been up and will be a lot less likely to flip out when presented with the hard facts of the ticking clock.
The previously mentioned wedding worked in a similar way, with a few small group shots followed by some huge group shots, then some mid-sized groups, then some more small group shots. The benefits were quite a few, including a much less frenzied 'front line'. The group shot time slot was around 45 minutes (200 ish in attendance), but if we were pressed for time, I imagine that they could have sliced down a good chunk of the last 20 minmutes.
Of course, the bottom line is that if the Bride thinks she can time manage a wedding to 5 minute increments, she's living in fairy marshmallow puff land. |
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04/08/2008 10:38:05 AM · #19 |
I have never shot in a church, but all i can think of is teh very dark small windows of the English churches.
I think you are going to lose your friend if she thinks you are going to be able to pull this one off in near impossible situtation. Unless the chucrch is really modern with LOTS of HUGE windows.
I think you really need to talk to her, maybe go in a closet with her and have her pose and then show her the results, cos that is what she is going to pretty much get. A dark dark picture.
oh good luck sweetie, |
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04/08/2008 11:32:05 AM · #20 |
| This just keeps getting uglier and uglier. I think the best thing for me to do is offer to buy you a stiff drink on the beach on Sunday so you have someone to vent your frustrations. |
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04/08/2008 11:32:26 AM · #21 |
I am the owner of rentphotostuff.com. Send me a PM if you are interested in some gear. Normally I would say the 24-70 2.8 is fast enough, but you have your hands full with this one. I have the 50 1.4 and the 85 1.2L which are both extremely fast as you know. I shoot with the XT (upgrading to the 5D or new 5D depending on release date). Those lenses on a 1.6 are fine and with the image quality they produce you can push the ISO a bit. I have shot at 1600 with good results. It will take a bit of noise reducing after the fact, but as long as they don't want huge prints you can make do and besides if its a matter of slightly flat images at 1600 & neat image VS dark photos at iso 800... you really don't have a choice.
Send me a message and we can work a deal for some lenses if you would like or send an email right to service@rentphotostuff.com.
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04/08/2008 11:47:23 AM · #22 |
Oh and PM me the name and location of the church. I can stop by and ask for details about their policy. And possibly shoot a few shots to give you some idea of what it's like.
Message edited by author 2008-04-08 11:48:19. |
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04/08/2008 11:57:30 AM · #23 |
| take up Eug on that offer!!!! both the Church and the drink |
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04/08/2008 12:34:48 PM · #24 |
| Run away. Run fast and run far. |
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04/08/2008 12:42:12 PM · #25 |
If you've ever read any of my posts on bad weddings you'll know why this is a bad idea... all brides have an idea in their head about what kind of photo's their going to get, but they have no idea what it takes to get them... I blame the Cannon and Nikon commercials featuring those great wedding photo's. with the conditions you've described that just isn't going to happen and you're going to have a very disappointed (and therefor unhappy) bride... you don't want that... if you have get her to relax on her conditions for shooting I wouldn't do it... even with the best equipment in the world. rather have her mad that you didn't shoot, than mad that you "ruined" her wedding photo's (not that that's the case but that's how she would see it.)
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