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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> Konador's "love" photo
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 05/13/2004 08:08:33 PM · #1
Check out this link to a livejournal community that is dealing with his photo.

What do you guys think about it?

Edit: Fixed link.

Message edited by author 2004-05-13 20:20:15.
 05/13/2004 08:15:33 PM · #2
Ben is famous.When I get younger I want to be just like him. Almost 5000 views of the photo. Hope it leads to more sales :)

Message edited by author 2004-05-13 20:18:58.
 05/13/2004 09:41:34 PM · #3
Was it really done first here? My memory isn't what it used to be but I could of sworn I saw a whole series of similar photos when I took a photo class in high school. Is it really such a big deal to use the same idea?
 05/13/2004 09:49:37 PM · #4
Originally posted by TechnoShroom:
Was it really done first here? My memory isn't what it used to be but I could of sworn I saw a whole series of similar photos when I took a photo class in high school. Is it really such a big deal to use the same idea?


There is using something as inspiration, and then there is duplication. This is almost an exact duplicate...even the crop is almost exact.
 05/13/2004 10:28:16 PM · #5
As cbeller said, the crop and everything is almost exactly the same. Sure the DOF, size, and color may be a bit different, but there's no doubting that it is a copy.

Their rules state: "6. all photos must be original."

Therefore it cannot be allowed, regardless of whether or not it was done here first.
 05/13/2004 10:29:43 PM · #6
Originally posted by cbeller:
There is using something as inspiration, and then there is duplication. This is almost an exact duplicate...even the crop is almost exact.


Ok, then to rephrase my question is duplication such a big deal?
 05/13/2004 10:30:50 PM · #7
Originally posted by TechnoShroom:
Originally posted by cbeller:
There is using something as inspiration, and then there is duplication. This is almost an exact duplicate...even the crop is almost exact.


Ok, then to rephrase my question is duplication such a big deal?


See my post. ^_^
 05/13/2004 10:31:57 PM · #8
Originally posted by Ami Yuy:
As cbeller said, the crop and everything is almost exactly the same. Sure the DOF, size, and color may be a bit different, but there's no doubting that it is a copy.

Their rules state: "6. all photos must be original."

Therefore it cannot be allowed, regardless of whether or not it was done here first.


My question was more general in nature. I'm unconcerned with what is going on at that site. I'm just trying to figure out if taking a similar photo is bad (very similar in this case) and if so, why.
 05/13/2004 10:37:51 PM · #9
Originally posted by TechnoShroom:

My question was more general in nature. I'm unconcerned with what is going on at that site. I'm just trying to figure out if taking a similar photo is bad (very similar in this case) and if so, why.


Well, no not really. I find that duplication is helpful to learn, but it serves only to do that. Using the duplicated photo to win a contest or claim it as your own is not right (to me). Coming up with your own ideas and inspirations is a big part of photography, sure copy the style, but you can apply the lessons and methods of that photo without duplicating it.
 05/13/2004 11:04:19 PM · #10
Ok. I say that if the photographer wants to copy an idea and call it their own...it's ok. The photo is their own, is it not? Did the photographer set up the shot, and snap the button on the camera? Then it's their PHOTO. It is original. There may be one similar, but it's not exact.
Geez...no one made a fuss when Setz won a ribbon with Liberty and Justice which is just as much of an imitation of an idea as the 'Ben wannabe's shot. I say both are just fine in my book.
 05/13/2004 11:34:54 PM · #11
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
Ok. I say that if the photographer wants to copy an idea and call it their own...it's ok. The photo is their own, is it not? Did the photographer set up the shot, and snap the button on the camera? Then it's their PHOTO. It is original. There may be one similar, but it's not exact.
Geez...no one made a fuss when Setz won a ribbon with Liberty and Justice which is just as much of an imitation of an idea as the 'Ben wannabe's shot. I say both are just fine in my book.


I agree! I have copied quite a few photos. That is how one grows and gets better.
 05/13/2004 11:49:28 PM · #12
Originally posted by Sonifo:
I agree! I have copied quite a few photos. That is how one grows and gets better.


I 3rd that. :) Konador should feel good that someone thought his original (which is much better then the copy) was cool enough to try to copy. I'd take it as a compliment. However if it were a popular image that Konador was making money from, and the copy was causing him to loss profits, that's different. :)
 05/14/2004 12:09:52 AM · #13
Ideas cannot be copyrighted, and an "original" photo does not mean you are the first human to every photograph that subject. It means you personally composed and "took" the picture, not copied the file from a disc of stock photography.

One of my favorite quotations:

Plagiarize,
Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes,
So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize...
Only be sure always to call it please, "research".

--Tom Lehrer, Lobachevsky (c.1952)

"Complete" and partly annotated Tom Lehrer lyrics are available at this site.
 05/14/2004 12:36:30 AM · #14
*sighs* I'm not trying to attack anyone, just stating my opinion, while tired...which may not be such a good idea?...

Basically, I find no satisfaction in copying someone else's idea and profiting from it, it's not my accomplishment then. I do go out and try to duplicate photos, but only for the exercise of attempting to figure out how it was taken so that I can use that for future pictures.

Which...now that I think about it is the purpose of this site, so it may not be such a big deal here. It's kind of like an art course where the students copy a famous painting to practice how to do the techniques. They don't claim ownership of the art (or the idea behind it) and they don't profit from it other than a grade and family praise (while giving recognition to the original artist!).

GeneralE, we're not necessarily dealing with just a subject here, it's copying an exact set-up photograph. I'm not saying that millions of people haven't already taken a picture of a dog looking through a fence (my Off-Screen Expectation photo), but that wasn't set up in a room with a light, book and filter to look exactly like another set-up shot. If the person had given a disclaimer and said, "Hey I saw this done somewhere and thought it was a cool idea." there would be no problem, but as it is, with a (c) on the photo and no disclaimer, it can easily be taken as an attempt to win a contest with an idea that is not his own.

Yes, there are no original ideas. Yes, almost everything we do is influenced by something we've seen before (consciously or unconsciously). But copying another person's work (consciously) for your own personal gain (not for learning purposes) is not flattery, but stealing.

Geeze, can you tell I don't follow the adage: "Imitation is the highest form of flattery." If I put work into a photo, essay, project, or website, I don't care if someone likes the idea and wants to build on it, heck I've done that. But I do care if they take my exact photo (or as close as they can get), essay, project, or html code and claim it as their own. I put the work into it and they are trying to take the credit for my ideas and work.

Message edited by author 2004-05-14 00:38:00.
 05/14/2004 01:38:20 AM · #15
Originally posted by Ami Yuy:
*sighs* I'm not trying to attack anyone, just stating my opinion, while tired...which may not be such a good idea?...

Basically, I find no satisfaction in copying someone else's idea and profiting from it, it's not my accomplishment then.

I don't want you to feel attacked either, but only to recognize that not everyone shares the feelings you stated ... that's OK, it's just different.

You have every right to dislike a "copied" photo, and feel free to give it a "1" in a challenge, but that still doesn't make it "wrong" or "bad" (or illegal), which is how the person who takes such a photo is going to hear it most of the time. If they set it up, adjust the lights, frame and focus the camera, expose and process the image, they have a pretty good claim that it's "their" photo regardless of the originality of the subject or presentation.
 05/14/2004 01:52:03 AM · #16
Originally posted by GeneralE:
You have every right to dislike a "copied" photo, and feel free to give it a "1" in a challenge, but that still doesn't make it "wrong" or "bad" (or illegal), which is how the person who takes such a photo is going to hear it most of the time. If they set it up, adjust the lights, frame and focus the camera, expose and process the image, they have a pretty good claim that it's "their" photo regardless of the originality of the subject or presentation.


*nods* Agreed. And I would never rate a photo down just because I've seen it done before and suspect it may be copied. As I've said, here on DPC I can see why it is done, to learn, and I would not want to discourage or penalize them.
 05/14/2004 02:37:30 AM · #17
Kondor's idea is not in itself original. I've seen images made with eyeglasses that were done before his submission.
 05/14/2004 03:21:11 AM · #18
Originally posted by jimmythefish:
Kondor's idea is not in itself original. I've seen images made with eyeglasses that were done before his submission.


Me too :)
I don't mind if people use the idea again either. That's why I wrote a How'd They Do That tutorial for it :)
 05/14/2004 05:13:52 AM · #19
I think that the point wasn't that the idea was being used, but that it was pretty much an exact copy.

The colors, composition.

Everything was pretty much dead on except the book.

Someone mention Setzlers image of the water drops and flag. I saw that one in a magazine before he submitted his here too. I thought it was odd to copy it like that. They seemed to be pretty much the same exact image too. And he won too.

Oh well.

As I had said on that post in livejournal, I think it's okay to use ideas you see in other photos, but I don't think it's cool to copy them.
 05/14/2004 05:58:43 AM · #20
Ben, was it your idea to begin with?

I too thought it was a conscious replication of a famous picture from the past.
I can't remember where I saw it.
 05/15/2004 01:04:54 PM · #21
Bump

???

Anyone else know?
 05/15/2004 02:01:32 PM · #22
I got my idea from a photo I'd seen with a pair of eye-glasses on a book. I've never seen one done with a coloured filter before.
 05/15/2004 06:42:19 PM · #23
I don't know how it works with copyright in the USA, but in the Netherlands one can only have the copyrights on a photo when
1. the work is original; one can recognize the hand of the maker
and
2. the work has to be perceived, thus it can be read, seen, or heard.

When the work is inspired by another work, it must be original in the way it is photographed, the angle maybe, the use of colour or the use of objects..if it is more or less exactly the same picture, it isn't all that bad either, but the maker can't claim the copyright! (in the Netherlands that is!). Does DPC has rules about copying pictures?
 05/15/2004 08:05:10 PM · #24
I think the key factor in making a "copy" -- your own version of something inspired by something else -- is that you cannot purport or imply that it is the original, which would be fraud, or to market it in such a way as to dilute the commercial value of the original.

The issue is much more relevant to trademarks than it is to copyrights. Under US copyright law, you generally can do anything you want so long as it falls under one of the "fair use" categories: personal, educational, journalistic, satiric/parody, or political commentary. Entries to DPC challenges, or photos posted here for comments, will pretty much always be legal; selling prints may or may not be.
 05/15/2004 09:19:37 PM · #25
When you think about it, almost every image you see on DPC has been "done before" in some form or another. Most likely the entries in weekly challenges have been inspired by someone else's photo or something in that back of the photographers mind that he/she has seen before.

Just like Konador said, he's seen the eye glasses, on a book and that inspired him to do it with a colored lens. But can you imagine how many photos of a colored lens on a book to make a heart have been done before? I seriously doubt that Konador was the first nor will be the last. So all of this "stealing" someone's idea doesn't hold water.

Now what might be fun is to look back on photos entered (or portfolios) of photos you think could be completely original. :) I can think of a small few that MAY be completely original. Can you think of any?

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